W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org > November 2008

meeting record: 2008-11-20 RDFa telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 12:23:13 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20081120122147.0247cc50@127.0.0.1>
To: public-swd-wg@w3.org,public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon is now available:

  http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html


A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

20 Nov 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0032.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-11-06

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Manu Sporny,
          Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
          Michael

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. Test Cases
         3. Question on spec from Johan
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

   Ben: I was invited to talk with Interlab (at Lawrence Livermore)
   alongside some Microformat folk,
   ... had a lovely time
   ... agreement that there was a place for both RDFa and Microformats
   ... a range of stuff people want to express
   ... use microformat vcard if it does what you want, use RDFa if you
   need to extend
   ... that audience pretty quickly saw the need to add their own
   extensions

   <msporny> [10]http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page

     [10] http://microformats.org/wiki/Main_Page

   <msporny> [11]http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

     [11] http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard

   Manu: Microformats is starting to markup their site in a style
   similar to W3C

   Ben: get them to use RDFa in their specs :)

   Ralph: yeah, embarass W3C into publishing RECs with RDFa by being
   second to do it ;)

Action Items

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to
   point to new TF page. [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   Ben: required writing a new task force page 'cause we didn't really
   have one

   <benadida> old tf page -->
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/

   <benadida> new tf page --> [14]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/

   Ben: Michael had created a page, now cited from the new page, but it
   had too much detail for a TF home page

   Manu: add a link to the wiki

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain
   [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   Manu: see [18]test case 120; "empty string "" is not equivalent to
   NULL"

     [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers
   dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   Manu:see test cases [22]118; Fragment identifiers stripped from BASE
   and [23]119; Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for
   subjects/objects

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html
     [23] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   Ben: should we look for more resources on this? some collaborators?

   Mark: I volunteered for this action because I do have an old wizard
   for XForms
   ... was originally written for a plug-in that required installation
   ... we have a new project; Ubiquity XForms that's an ajax library
   ... the wizard running in Ubiquity XForms would run on any browser
   ... that's what I've been planning to do
   ... just been swamped

   Ben: I'd come across Ubiquity XForms while searching for something
   else
   ... seems pretty cool
   ... perhaps I might be able to help

   Mark: happy to share what I have; may be a good way to learn XForms
   too
   ... it's not a complex wizard
   ... I used the FOAF RDF Schema in my old wizard, which I thought
   made this more useful

   <Steven> Advert for Ben -
   [27]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2003/xforms-for-html-authors.html

     [27] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/2003/xforms-for-html-authors.html

   Ben: yes, nice to drive the whole thing from RDF

   ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   Ben: RSS+RDFa came up at the Interlab talk

   <markbirbeck> Ubiquity XForms
   [32]http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/

     [32] http://ubiquity-xforms.googlecode.com/

   Ben: extensibility is important

   Steven: I wrote something on one of Mark's wikis a while ago
   ... but it disappeared

   Mark: yeah, unfortunately I lost that wiki data due to spam

   Manu: there's a lot of similarity between hAtom and SIOC
   ... ought to be easy to write a tool to extract the SIOC triples and
   rewrite it as hAtom
   ... use SIOC as the base syndication format

   Ben: Atom is built to be extensible
   ... so there's an interesting case to be made specifically for this
   use case

   <Steven> [$1\47]

   <Steven>
   <[33]http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/01/xhtml-2-as-universal-
   document.htm

     [33] http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/2005/01/xhtml-2-as-universal-document.htm

   <Steven> l>

   <Steven> [$1\47]
   <[34]http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleRSS
   >

     [34] http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleRSS%3E

   Steven: [$1\47] is the dead link

   <Steven> More on rss+RDFa -
   [35]http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/message/548

     [35] http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/syndication/message/548

Test Cases

Test 116

   <msporny> TC 116:
   [36]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008N
   ov/0027.html

     [36] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html

   -> [37]Test Case #116: Relative URLs must be resolved in resulting
   triples

     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0027.html

   <msporny> Title should be "XML Entities must be supported by RDFa
   parser"

   Ralph: it's important that the MIME type of the document describing
   the expected results is clear. E.g. if it's XML then some
   re-encoding is needed

   RESOLUTION: test case 116 approved

Test 117

   <msporny> TC 117:
   [38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008N
   ov/0028.html

     [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0028.html

   Manu: 117 is Toby Inkster's test for reserved words in @property; a
   negative test

   Manu: any other triples that shouldn't be generated? :)

   Mark: Toby's wording suggested a specific triple shouldn't be
   generated
   ... in fact, this test should generate _no_ triples

   RESOLUTION: test case 117 approved

Test 118

   <msporny> TC 118:
   [39]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008N
   ov/0029.html

     [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0029.html

   <msporny> Description should be: "This test case should strip the
   fragment from [base] when generating the subject of the triple."

   <msporny> That description should replace the contents of the <p>
   tag

   Mark: I'd like to see a test with base in the body
   ... the algorithm for @about="" needs to do the correct thing in
   both HEAD and BODY

   Manu: could add another triple in the body in 118

   <msporny> <body>

   <msporny> <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added
   this

   <msporny> triple test.

   <msporny> </body>

   Manu: add this to 118

   <msporny> ASK WHERE {

   <msporny> <[40]http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>

     [40] http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml%3E

   <msporny> <[41]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title>

     [41] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/title%3E

   <msporny> "Test 0118" .

   <msporny> <[42]http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml>

     [42] http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml%3E

   <msporny> <[43]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>

     [43] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor%3E

   <msporny> "Mark Birbeck" .

   <msporny> }

   ..

   <msporny> Corrected HTML:

   <msporny> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

   <msporny> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN"

   <msporny> "[44]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd">

     [44] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/DTD/xhtml-rdfa-1.dtd

   <msporny> <html xmlns="[45]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"

     [45] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml

   <msporny> xmlns:dc="[46]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/">

     [46] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/

   <msporny> <head>

   <msporny> <base
   href="[47]http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment"></base>

     [47] http://www.example.org/tc118.xhtml#fragment

   <msporny> <title property="dc:title">Test 0118</title>

   <msporny> </head>

   <msporny> <body>

   <msporny> <p>

   <msporny> <div property="dc:contributor">Mark Birbeck</div> added
   this

   <msporny> triple test.

   <msporny> </p>

   <msporny> </body>

   <msporny> </html>

   RESOLUTION: test case 118 approved with addition of triple in body

Test 119

   -> [48]Test Case #119: Fragment identifiers resolved correctly for
   subjects/objects

     [48] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html

   <msporny> TC 119:
   [49]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008N
   ov/0030.html

     [49] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0030.html

   Manu: note @about as well as @href with an invalid fragment
   ... I believe per the HTML spec that the last fragment identifier is
   the one that's used

   Ben: how do browsers behave?

   Mark: not sure you can rely on the browser behavior here

   Ralph: I recommend that the test case cite the part of the HTML spec
   you're relying on for the "#invalid#manu" resolution

   Mark: I have a URI test suite that I'd built out of frustration a
   while ago
   ... I believe I have an RFC-faithful implementation

   <ShaneM> I get this: <[50]http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#tc-119>
   <[51]http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor>
   <[52]http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#invalid%23manu>

     [50] http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#tc-119%3E
     [51] http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/contributor%3E
     [52] http://www.example.org/tc119.xhtml#invalid%23manu%3E

   Mark: and my implementation retains everything after the first '#'
   ... the first '#' indicates "from here on you have a fragment
   identifier"

   Shane: I agree with Mark
   ... as does my implementation

   <markbirbeck>
   [53]http://ubiquity-backplane.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_unit-tests/m
   ain.html

     [53] http://ubiquity-backplane.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/_unit-tests/main.html

   Shane: using a standard perl URI library, everything after the first
   embedded '#' is URI-encoded
   ... kind of surprising; I didn't expect this

   <markbirbeck> This is a test suite that uses all of the examples in
   the RFC.

   Mark: the re-encoding isn't wrong

   Ben: we need to be sure about the URI spec before we approve 119

   <msporny> TC 120:
   [54]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008N
   ov/0031.html

     [54] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html

Test 120

   -> [55]Test Case #120: empty string "" is not equivalent to NULL

     [55] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Nov/0031.html

   RESOLUTION: test 120 approved

Question on spec from Johan

   <ShaneM> email said: Step 7 and 9 create RDF triples using the [new
[   subject] ([56]http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#T_new_subject) I
   assume these create statements are honored if the [new subject] is
   not null (same condition as on step 6).

     [56] http://www.w3.org/TR/rdfa-syntax/#T_new_subject)

   Mark: the reported bug isn't quite correct but he did spot something
   ... the question asked if there ought to be a guard against not
   having a new subject in other steps
   ... but in fact the guard isn't needed in step 6 either

   Shane: by the time you get to step 6 you will have a new subject

   Mark: the step Johan is specifically referring to mentions @typeof,
   which will always be the case
   ... the current guard is not at all necessary

   Ralph: not harmful though?

   Mark: right, I'd remove it in an errata just so it doesn't confuse
   anyone else

   Shane: let's add it to the errata document now
   ... I'll update errata and reply to the commentor

   ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that step 6
   has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan who sent
   private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

   Ben: next meeting in 2 weeks; 4 December

   Mark: I have an almost-finished blog post on relating vocabularies;
   will finish that for discussion in 2 weeks

   Ben: also look at @prefix writeup in the wiki

   Mark: [rethinking test 119] I'm now thinking a fragment cannot
   contain '#'
   ... though '?' and '/' are allowed back in fragment IDs
   ... the reader should stop reading on the second '#'
   ... that's my interpretation now

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that
   step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan
   who sent private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
   of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
   with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
   in [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
   for Ivan. [recorded in
   [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
   in [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [67]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [68]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [69]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]

     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
     [64] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [65] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [66] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [67] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [68] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [69] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to add forward pointer to old task force page to
   point to new TF page. [recorded in
   [70]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to add test case for empty @about inside a chain
   [recorded in
   [71]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to create two TCs to test fragment identifiers
   dropped during URI resolution against [base] [recorded in
   [72]http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [70] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [71] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [72] http://www.w3.org/2008/10/09-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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