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meeting record: 2008-07-24 RDFa Task Force

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:28:05 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080724122559.05600e40@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org, public-swd-wg@w3.org

The minutes from today's RDF-in-XHTML task force telecon [1]
are now available for review.  Thanks to Manu for scribing.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes

A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF in XHTML Task Force

24 Jul 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0087.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-07-17

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Manu Sporny, Shane McCarron, Ben Adida, Jeremy
          Carroll

   Regrets
          Mark Birbeck, Michael Hausenblas, Steven Pemberton

   Chair
          Ben Adida

   Scribe
          Manu Sporny

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. Implementation Report
         3. RDFa and HTML4/5
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

Action Items

   benadida: pretty short agenda today

   action items, implementation report, edits on the primer, HTML 4/5
   thoughts

   benadida: we don't want to overstep our charter, all we can do is
   outline how it could work on the wiki

   ACTION: Ben to log all CR issues to tracker [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki
   [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
   [CONTINUES]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16

   ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [CONTINUES]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
   transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01] [DONE]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   <Ralph> PROPOSE: [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt

   <Ralph> PROPOSE: [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa10-xslt

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa10-xslt

   <benadida> +1 to non-dated version

   benadida: do we have a W3C address for the XSLT?

   <msporny> +1 to non-dated version

   <benadida> +1 to non-versioned, I mean.

   <msporny> +1 to non-versioned :)

   RESOLUTION: To use [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt as the
   XSLT transform URL.

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt

   ACTION: Ralph to make [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen
   [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT URI
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   Shane: I'm interested in follow-your-nose concept, it would be good
   to test this stuff.

   ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the NS URI
   is set up. [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness +
   EARL [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13] [DONE]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Ben to talk to Alan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [CONTINUES]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and
   wiki [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16] [DONE]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16

   ACTION: Jeremy to add TQ's contribution for impl report to wiki
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
   [29]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [29] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
     [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

Implementation Report

   benadida: our deadline was last friday for CR
   ... We have TQ's contribution
   ... We have a couple of issues and we believe that Alan's issues are
   not significant, but there are editorial issues we need to deal
   with.

   Ralph: I'm sure we'll need to make editorial changes

   benadida: we also need to update the primer.
   ... it would be good to time it together so we publish both syntax
   and primer at the same time.

   ShaneM: disagree - update the primer immediately.
   ... The next time we publish, it must be PR, it's harder to do that
   than publish a new version of the primer.

   Jeremy: We can publish another CR.

   Ralph: but we don't really want to.
   ... Our next document should be the final one.

   benadida: August is upon us, is there an issue with that?

   Ralph: Nobody will read it.

   benadida: we have to give extra time in september for people to read
   it when they get back.
   ... is it Michael or you Manu that have to put the implementation
   report together?

   manu: Michael has the XSLT transform.

   Ralph: we have to worry about the deployment workgroup schedule.

   benadida: isn't there a call next week?

   Ralph: next week, august 5th, and august 19th.

   benadida: Do we need reviewers for editorial changes?
   ... we need it for PR definitely.
   ... I think next week we need reviewers from the WG for PR.

   Ralph: When will we have a document for them?

   benadida: Is 2 weeks from now sufficient?
   ... Could we shoot for the 19th for approval?

   Ralph: very ambitious, don't think it can happen in time.

   benadida: What could be the issue?

   Ralph: Alan asked some important questions about our examples,
   they're editorial, but we should look at it again.
   ... Alan believes there is some fundamental architectural issue, we
   believe these are editorial.
   ... My point is, I don't know if we can resolve Issue 122 in two
   weeks.

   ACTION: Ben to tease out the more involved aspects of ISSUE-122
   [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action19]

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action19

   benadida: I'd like thoughts on what we need to do on that after I
   send the issues out.
   ... based on what that looks like, we can give an update to the WG
   next week.
   ... We could shoot for Aug 19th to give them the document.
   ... we should get Mark's input before the 12th.
   ... 2008-08-19 doc ready for review.
   ... two weeks later document ready for PR.
   ... any issues with this schedule?
   ... august is going to be quiet anyway, two weeks won't make too
   much of a difference.

   Ralph: I'll be gone sept. 9-18th
   ... if we can have all of our evidence by sept. 2nd, that would be
   good.

   benadida: you don't like "HTML" instead of "XHTML" in the Primer?

   Manu: I've pointed a couple of people at the Primer and they
   immediately assume they can use RDFa with HTML4

   Ben: but they _can_

   Manu: then I have to have a conversation about why it's OK if your
   document doesn't validate
   ... and people don't believe this

   Jeremy: add a paragraph explaining that while validation of
   HTML4+RDFa won't work, everything else will

   Ben: I'm skeptical about those who demand validation because many of
   them have Web sites that don't validate

   Manu: a practical reason not to encourage documents that won't
   validate ...
   ... fuzzbot by default tries to use XHTML and if this fails it falls
   back to HTML+tidy
   ... if people can't validate their document then fuzzbot's fallback
   mechanism has a side effect (via tidy) of stripping out the RDFa

   Ben: if I forget a close tag, what happens?

   Manu: Firefox will complain first, depending on the user's choice of
   mode

   Ben: consider XHTML1.1+RDFa -- FireFox will recover, what will
   fuzzbot do?

   Manu: if the document doesn't validate, fuzzbot won't find the
   triples
   ... the issue is that tidy destroys the invalid markup

   Ben: Ivan's approach is to try XHTML and if that fails then use the
   HTML5 DOM interface
   ... this seems to work out well

   Jeremy: doesn't this depend on which tidy options are used?
   ... [TopQuadrant is] using jtidy with success
   ... it's not the case that tidy needs to discard [the RDFa] markup

   Manu: the fundamental point is that for those cases where validation
   really does matter, we can't encourage HTML+RDFa right now. We can't
   just ignore those users

   Ben: the next logical step in this work is to take up the
   HTML4/5+RDFa question

   Shane: when Manu says 'valid', I think he really means 'well-formed'

   Manu: correct

   Shane: we can work with well-formed documents

   Ben: it's not hard to rely on whatever the browser does in its DOM

   Shane: not hard if you're writing a browser-based tool

   Manu: I agree that tools should do everything they can to extract
   the triples
   ... but it's dangerous for W3C to say "don't worry about validation"

   Jeremy: it's not that we're _recommending_ using this markup in HTML
   ... from a tool vendor's point of view it's a fact of life that
   there's bad HTML out there
   ... we just have to work with it
   ... tool vendors and browser vendors _do_ work with the bad HTML
   that's out there
   ... it's a strength of the Web that authors don't need a lot of
   technical ability
   ... I'm in favor of the Primer saying "HTML" throughout

   Jeremy: and that a seriously strong warning [about validation] would
   address the concern

   Shane: we've been chartered to work with SWD and XHTML2 to find ways
   to put RDF into XHTML
   ... our charter is only to address XHTML

   benadida: you're correct.
   ... this is a question we knew that was coming down the line.
   ... If we say we weren't chartered to do that, it's not a good
   answer.

   ShaneM: we should be championing use in HTML... we shouldn't put it
   in the Primer.

   Ralph: The charter was written when we thought that there would only
   be XHTML.
   ... it's not out of line for us to ask to re-open thinking about
   modularizing RDFa to HTML 4, XHTML and HTML 5
   ... We could add something stating that XHTML is a kind of HTML for
   the purposes of the Primer.

   benadida: would it be acceptable if we described XHTML as a subclass
   as HTML?

   ShaneM: No.
   ... nobody would say that XHTML is a form of HTML.

   Ralph: I think Tim might use language like "There is an HTML family,
   of which XHTML, HTML4 and HTML5 are all members of this family."

   benadida: Don't want cognitive load of XHTML to be on the reader's
   mind.

   Manu: it's bad practice to talk in the document about things that
   _might_ happen in the future
   ... talk about things that do work today
   ... we should be describing best practices

   ShaneM: Let me tell you who does care - the W3C.
   ... We can't take that position.
   ... we can't have a W3C document that says "put whatever you want in
   an HTML document"

   Ralph: I don't know what the view is on that - re: Tim - how does
   validation work, how should it work?
   ... Jeremy has a very pragmatic approach to this.
   ... We like to define stuff that has predictable results for
   everyone.
   ... People like having standards so they can point to bugs in
   software and ask vendors to fix those bugs.
   ... The XML community took a hard stance when you get a non-well
   formed document.
   ... There is tension in that community because of that stance.
   ... tool vendors take a very pragmatic approach.
   ... The question is, what can we say in the document to allow users
   some flexibility?

   Jeremy: We could change it all to XHTML and put in a paragraph
   talking about it being useful in HTML4.

   Ralph: Those that care about valid documents will point to the
   Primer and use it against us, those that don't care about validation
   won't care.

   benadida: is that okay with you Shane?

   ShaneM: I think so.
   ... I'm more interested in HTML4 and RDFa right now, I just don't
   want to mislead the readers of the Primer.

   Ralph: We believe this is the right solution so we're trying to get
   this in as many places as possible.

   PROPOSE: to change HTML to XHTML in Primer and add a short section
   pointing out that implementations may well accept RDFa in HTML
   though those documents won't validate.

   <msporny>+1

   <Ralph> +1

   <benadida> +1 (grumble)

   <ShaneM> +1 (also grumble)

   RESOLUTION: Change HTML to XHTML in Primer and add a short section
   pointing out that implementations may well accept RDFa in HTML
   though those documents won't validate.

   Ralph: not only "implementations may well accept" but "we have
   designed RDFa to make it easy for applications to accept"

   ACTION: Ben to update Primer according to resolution, and add note
   about "it was designed to eventually work in HTML, etc..." [recorded
   in [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action20

   benadida: We might want to start a page on the wiki on HTML 4 and
   HTML 5.

   ShaneM: We could do it as a member submission.

   Ralph: you could also do it as an incubator group.

   ACTION: Manu to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21

   ShaneM: let's setup an wiki page.

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to log all CR issues to tracker [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to tease out the more involved aspects of
   ISSUE-122 [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action19]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to update Primer according to resolution, and add
   note about "it was designed to eventually work in HTML, etc..."
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
   [NEW] ACTION: Jeremy to add TQ's contribution for impl report to
   wiki [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once the
   NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ralph to make [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
   happen [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new XSLT
   URI [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action19
     [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action20
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to talk to Alan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded
   in [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the
   rdfa.info wiki [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
   [51]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
   [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded
   in [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [49] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [51] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [DONE] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
   transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test
   harness + EARL [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [DONE] ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report
   and wiki [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

     [56] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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