W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org > July 2008

meeting record: 2008-07-17 RDFa telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 12:19:01 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080717121723.0505d528@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org, public-swd-wg@w3.org

Minutes from today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] are
ready for review.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html

Text snapshot attached.

----

                        RDF in XHTML TaskForce

17 Jul 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0044.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-07-10

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Ralph Swick, Jeremy Carroll

   Regrets
          Michael Hausenblas, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Steven Pemberton

   Chair
          Manu

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Review
         2. HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans
         3. RDFa Best Practices
         4. Misc
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________



   <markbirbeck> I'll be on IRC for a little while, but have to leave
   early to get kids.

   -> [11]Open (CR) comments

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/products/2

   <ShaneM> Have people seen [12]umbel.org ?

     [12] http://www.umbel.org/

Action Review

   ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [CONTINUES]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

   ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl report and
   wiki [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
   [CONTINUES]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16

   Jeremy: I've written the report, will post soon

   <JeremyCarroll> [15]current draft report

     [15] http://www.topquadrant.com/w3c/RDFa/

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu to write up current issues with information
   resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary.
   [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

   <msporny> [17]uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem

     [17] http://rdfa.info/wiki/uri-vs-resource-ambiguity-problem

   ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
   [18]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
   [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: [DONE] Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report
   back [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

   ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
   transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness +
   EARL [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [CONTINUES]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   Ralph: do we consider this important enough to keep at this point?

   Manu: they wanted to get it for the implementation report
   ... it was going to make Michael and Ben's life easier to create the
   implementation report for Javascript

   <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to mention TQ's conformance
   statement

   Jeremy: while writing the report for TopQuadrant, I noted the
   following:
   ... any advice on anything better to say?

   <JeremyCarroll> The conformance of the RDFa input depends on the
   conformance of the RDFa parser being used, currently Fabien Gandon's
   transform. Therefore we do not submit a separate report.

   <JeremyCarroll> It is not clear what conformance tests we should do
   on the RDFa editing functionality. As is, the normal process of
   software maintenance should ensure that all output from the RDFa
   editor is legal RDFa input, with the expected triples, and most
   reasonable RDFa input can be produced with the editors. The
   autocomplete facility will currently generate qnames rather than
   CURIEs, since the other RDF formats currently do not use CURIEs. If
   and when other RDF

   Shane: QNames are technically a subset of CURIEs
   ... so you _are_ generating CURIEs

   Jeremy: just a question about providing an implementation report for
   RDFa consumers

   Manu: for the implementation report, we have a set of
   implementations that run against the RDFa test harness
   ... if an RDFa parser is setup correctly it can be [automatically]
   run against the test harness
   ... so the expectation is to say whether or not you pass each test

   Jeremy: the existing tests are for RDFa parsers. TopQuadrant
   integrates parsers written by others
   ... for the editing functionality it's hard to know what to say

   Manu: my understanding is that the implementation report planned to
   only cover parser tests

   Ralph: perhaps TopQuadrant could show how to use its tools to
   generate the test examples (or their equivalent)

   Jeremy: nice idea

   Manu: yes, would be nice to describe a full round-trip; generating
   then parsing RDFa

   Shane: in the spec we only define conformance for _parsers_
   ... in the implementation report we can have sections that talk
   about other supporting tools
   ... so, e.g., user agents; IE, Opera, FireFox

   Ralph: yes, for example it would be good to mention SearchMonkey,
   even though they don't yet support all of RDFa

   Shane: it's also good to document that browsers don't break when
   they're fed RDFa
   ... though we don't actually have any user agent conformance clauses

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   Manu: these are 1-1 mappable to the microformat vocabulary
   ... Toby Inkster has written a tool to intersperce RDFa in haudio
   microformat

   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   Ralph: I hand-wrote a bunch of comments on that last week, never got
   to enter them :(

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   Manu: there's been a lot of work in the SIOC vocabulary that has to
   do with posts and the authors of posts
   ... SIOC is meant for bloggers and folks who post news

   Shane: regarding haudio, Manu mentioned generalized media RDF. Is
   there a video RDF?

   Manu: yes, there's a base vocabulary for media on which the audio
   and video vocabularies build
   ... media builds off of Dublin Core

   Shane: for example, how might one annotate IMDB with RDFa

   Manu: this vocabulary is intended to help with that; marking up
   television episodes, all the actors, grips, etc.
   ... we have 80-85% coverage of the use cases we've found so far
   ... we've looked at a large number of Web sites that publish this
   sort of data
   ... ties in with BBC comments on non-accessibility of microformats
   data, esp. the date format
   ... the accessibility problem is that screen readers attempt to read
   out data that's only intended for the machines

   Jeremy: who's the BBC contact?

   Manu:I've been chatting with Michael Smethurst at the BBC about
   Audio/Video/Media RDFa

HTML4, HTML5, and CR plans

   Manu: we've been seeing more traffic on the lists noting that it's
   nice to have XHTML support but what about HTML4 and HTML5
   ... we've pointed out that the markup won't break HTML4/5 tools
   ... but the users want validation

   Ralph:Well, HTML4 doesn't have a working group
   ... HTML5 has it in their charter to support extensibility for RDFa
   plus some others

   <Zakim> JeremyCarroll, you wanted to note this issue should go
   through to ac review and to

   Jeremy: this issue of the more extensive ambition of the RDFa folk
   won't go away
   ... we do want RDFa used with HTML4
   ... the conversations on the mailing list show that some just want
   to get the job done while others are concerned about conformance
   ... I think we have to acknowledge that the discussion continues
   though we've made a particular choice and it's the right one
   ... we've specified what can be specified correctly while
   acknowledging that some will use it with HTML4
   ... the tone of the primer does not rule out RDFa+HTML4 even though
   we can't specify it
   ... we know that _in practice_ RDFa+HTML4 is usable even though it
   won't validate

   Manu: could we create something that would work with the W3C
   validator?

   Shane: the W3C validator uses NSGMLS through a perl interface
   (opensp)
   ... opensp in SGML mode
   ... validating a document against a DTD
   ... it will do this for any DTD that it is aware of

   Manu: could we create a DTD for RDFa+HTML4?

   Shane: SGML mode does not understand @xmlns
   ... so we'd need a different way to define prefixes or a way to
   persuade the validator to ignore @xmlns errors in certain types of
   documents

   Ralph: we don't actually have a charter to do anything except XHTML
   ... so we're on weak ground to ask for any changes in the validator

   Shane: what would be the best way for us to support RDFa in an HTML4
   environment? Does it make sense to push @xmlns into this environment
   or should we create another prefixing mechanism?

   Manu: it would be really nice to not have to change anything
   ... or add a flag to parsers indicating whether they're processing
   HTML4/5 and find a different attribute than @xmlns

   <markbirbeck> Hey guys...really sorry I'm not there. However, I
   think the easiest way to get out of the @xmlns bind is via CURIEs,
   and not RDFa.

   <markbirbeck> Will have to explain more either next week, or on the
   list.

   <markbirbeck> (Unless I work on a strawman with Shane....)

   Manu: everything other than @xmlns maps cleanly

   Shane: yes, everything else works fine

   Jeremy: how many actual HTML4 tools will have a problem with RDfa?
   ... the validator doesn't matter in the big picture

   Manu: the validators matter for adoption

   <ShaneM> I like the idea of @ns

   Manu: authors don't want to hear complaints from their bosses about
   documents that don't validate

   Jeremy: so just ask the validator to ignore XML namespaces

   Shane: I think there is already a control for this
   ... when it's validating in XML mode via a DTD it has to ignore
   namespace errors

   <msporny> Mark - it would be really great to hear your thoughts on
   this (on list, or via the wiki)

   <ShaneM> @ns="prefix URI prefix2 URI..."

   Shane: I already have the code to patch the W3C validator to do this
   ... but other authoring tools also have 'validate me' buttons
   ... we'd want those other validators to also work

   <markbirbeck> Manu...really sorry for absence. Speak to you all
   soon...gotta go. :)

   Shane: but sure, we can tell people it's OK to put RDFa in HTML

   Manu: we can't say there's backing from any W3C process but we can
   point to a starting place

   Ralph: I think the HTML5 spec will have to address something like
   namespaces
   ... we should not get out ahead of that
   ... whether they accept @xmlns or not, we need to wait

   Shane: I disgree; we've overloaded @xmlns and that's a mistake
   ... it's a convenience but in the real world @xmlns is not the way
   to extend grammars
   ... if HTML5 does not define @xmlns we could still do something else
   and HTML5 wouldn't care
   ... vocabulary extention needs something other than XML namespaces

   Manu: the issue we're up against is how to stuff this into
   validators

   Shane: I like the @ns= idea

   Manu: it would be nice to have something that shows people how to
   put RDFa into HTML4/5 and get it validated
   ... would the W3C object?

   Ralph: no one moderates what we put in our wiki :)

RDFa Best Practices

   Manu: it's becoming evident that there are right ways and wrong ways
   to use RDFa vocabularies
   ... for example, I wasn't aware that the Dublin Core vocabulary is
   now a legacy vocabulary and we should really be using [31]DC Terms
   ... would be nice to have a tool that reminds people about current
   best practices
   ... like a lint for RDFa
   ... suggestions for improving markup or flagging mistakes

     [31] http://dublincore.org/documents/dcmi-terms/

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss lint for rdfa/xhtml+rdfa

   Shane: there's a validator side-project that has a framework for
   doing this sort of thing
   ... I'm certain that Olivier would welcome our help to do this
   ... I'll even volunteer
   ... the tricky part will be deciding the rules
   ... the tool is very good about suggesting how you should have done
   X or Y
   ... it was written to support the Appendix C validation of HTML

   Manu: first thing is to come up with some best practices
   ... document these in the wiki
   ... when we get 10 or 15 we could roll them into the tool

   ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info wiki
   [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]

   Shane: makes sense

Misc

   Shane: I'm especially interested in feedback on my post "[33]Re:
   RDFa Primer comment"
   ... we need to have a consistent message from this Task Force

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0048.html

   Manu: agree
   ... and we'll have to do more work on HTML4/5 before saying anything

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Manu: Start Best Practices Section on the rdfa.info
   wiki [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane respond to commentor for ISSUE-121 [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/17-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
   transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test
   harness + EARL [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to talk to Allan about CR ISSUE-122 [recorded
   in [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to write up TQ's contribution for impl
   report and wiki [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to rewrite and extend
   [44]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials for RSS (maybe with seq)
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [37] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
     [38] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action16
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [44] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Tutorials
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action08
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu to write up current issues with information
   resource vs. actual resource with regard to Audio RDF vocabulary.
   [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
   [DONE] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [DONE] ACTION: Shane to make ISSUE-121 editorial change and report
   back [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

     [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
     [49] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
     [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/10-rdfa-minutes.html#action13

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [51]scribe.perl version 1.133
    ([52]CVS log)
    $Date: 2008/07/17 16:17:20 $

     [51] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [52] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Thursday, 17 July 2008 16:19:44 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 17 July 2008 16:19:45 GMT