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meeting record: 2008-07-03 RDFa Telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 14:21:46 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080703135852.03add0a8@127.0.0.1>
To: public-swd-wg@w3.org, public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The minutes [1] of today's RDFa telecon are ready for review,
Thanks, Manu, for scribing.

   [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html

Text snapshot follows:

----

                        RDF in XHTML TaskForce

03 Jul 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Jul/0000.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-06-26

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Manu Sporny, Michael Hausenblas, Steven Pemberton, Shane
          McCarron, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida

   Regrets
          Mark Birbeck

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Manu

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. State of CR, Implementations, Review of Process.
         3. RDFa Tools & Examples
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________


    HAPPY BIRTHDAY MICHAEL !

   :)

   ,,,,,

   _|||||_

   {~*~*~*~}

   __{*~*~*~*}__

   `-------------`

   <mhausenblas> ta Manu :)

   <mhausenblas> I'd like to shortly talk about the Primer re 'link to
   full example'

   <mhausenblas> [10]Full example from RDFa Primer

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/alice-example.html

   <mhausenblas> Ben, just pointed out the Primer full example stuff

   <markbirbeck> I've just emailed my apologies. :(

   <markbirbeck> Will stay on IRC, though.

   <markbirbeck> Happy birthday Michael! :)

   <mhausenblas> [11]primer/alice-example.html

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/primer/alice-example.html

Action Items

   ACTION: [DONE] Manu check edit permissions on rdfa.info/wiki
   [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

   Manu:the wiki doesn't allow you to edit until you verify your email
   address

   ShaneM: That's correct.

   ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [CONTINUES]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   Ben: You should coordinate with Digg folks to see if you can come up
   with a vocab term for community rating.
   ... if they agree on that, then we can write a cool searchmonkey
   addition based on that.

   Ben: Either find the right one or pick a new one.

   Michael: Yes, one kinda exists... check [15]talis.com page first.

     [15] http://danja.talis.com/xmlns/rev_2007-11-09/index.html

   Steven: wanted to talk about vocabularies for a bit.
   ... got a comment about vevent blog post I did.

   Michael: It was Yves, right?

   Steven: yes, my question is I'm assuming that we want some standard
   vocabularies.
   ... Using location for a TV channel?
   ... So VCARD location for a TV program should be in the LOCATION
   field?

   ShaneM: What's the datatype for location?

   Steven: It's string.

   ShaneM: If it's a string, do whatever you want, right?

   Ralph: don't think that represents the designer's intent

   Steven: You don't quite have the right semantics if you go that
   route.

   Manu:one option that has been used is to permit either a string or a
   typed value

   Michael: I know Yves, we could talk with him a bit?

   Ben: It would be good to continue discussion with Yves.
   ... These discussions tend to be very long, because we're talking
   about vocabularies.

   Manu:people aren't necessarily going to understand the nuances of
   the semantics and will simply put in whatever strings they feel fit
   ... requiring specific data types will make the vocabular less
   accessible
   ... microformats try to make things easiest to use
   ... strings have no deeper interpretation; you are permitted to put
   whatever you want in a string

   Ben: The right approach would be to have experts figure it out.

   ShaneM: I disagree a bit - we don't have to figure this stuff out.

   <mhausenblas> +1

   Ben: People are still going to look to us to write up vocabularies.
   ... I agree in principle, but we have to bootstrap this somehow.

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss vocabulary evolution

   ShaneM: how does ontology discovery works?

   Ben: Michael is the mechanical turk behind ontology discovery.

   Michael: I do agree with Shane, we have to focus on what we're doing
   - RDFa, not vocabularies.
   ... If you have further information, talk to the vocab authors.
   ... we have to let people understand that there are certain
   contraints.

   <Manu: these questions are general; "what do we mean by 'location'"
   is a question that's not specific to just one vocabulary
   ... to get specific semantics, give people the option to use
   multiple datatypes
   ... the microformats community has dealt with this mostly by
   ignoring it

   ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   <Ralph> [[

   <Ralph> Manu: next can think about some javascript tools to generate
   the markup for some of these

   <Ralph> ... would be nice to have a unified architecture to create
   these wizards

   <Ralph> ... is there something already in existence we could use for
   this?

   <Ralph> ]]

   <Ralph> -- [17]2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [CONTINUES]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09] [DONE]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09

   <ShaneM> [21]http://rdfa.info/wiki/Geo-tutorial

     [21] http://rdfa.info/wiki/Geo-tutorial

   <mhausenblas> Michael: deployment is the 'only' important thing,
   e.g. in [22]geonames.org

     [22] http://www.geonames.org/

   <Ralph> [23]Geospatial Vocabulary (W3C Incubator Group Report)

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/geo/XGR-geo-20071023/

   <Ralph> [24]Geospatial Ontologies W3C Incubator Group Report 23
   October 2007

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/geo/XGR-geo-ont-20071023/

   ShaneM: The vocab isn't defined very well.

   Michael: People will look at the examples not the vocabulary.

   ShaneM: That's fine.
   ... What about URIs that represent the thing and URIs that represent
   the web page.
   ... I don't like this distinction - could Steven/Ralph go into the
   wiki and fix it.

   Michael: It's perfectly right! It's compliant with the linked data
   principles.

   Ben: We will have to have this discussion at greater length later
   on.

   Michael: There is a page on ESW [25]RDFa_vs_RDFXML] - if we want to
   discuss that there, it would be good.

     [25] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa_vs_RDFXML

   ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08] [DONE]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: Steven migrate VEVENT examples to rdfa.info wiki [recorded
   in [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

   ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL transform
   transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki [recorded
   in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [CONTINUES]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

State of CR, Implementations, Review of Process.

   <Steven> CURIEs are going to CR soon too

   Ben: CR period ends on July 18th
   ... At that point we should have an implementation report with a
   couple of implementations that are thoroughly documented.

   <mhausenblas> [30]RDFa/implementation-report

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/implementation-report/

   Michael: We have 3 that are fully compliant.
   ... err, 2 that are fully compliant.
   ... Shark is also fully compliant.

   Ralph: That's great that they have another implementation that's
   done in CR.

   Michael: It would be good to have a fully compliant PHP
   implementation.

   ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

   Ben: How do we integrate Javascript parsers.
   ... Do the test harnesses need to be official? Or do we just need to
   report on them?

   Ralph: I'd like to talk about hosting test harness.

   Ben: Let's do that right now.

   Ralph: I had suggested to move test harness to W3C.
   ... Everyone seemed to be in agreement.
   ... It's not a requirement.
   ... Since this is Working Group output, we should archive it.
   ... We didn't get it moved over in time, Manu sent the harness to
   me, made an attempt to install it.
   ... The question was presented to me as to where it should reside
   and for how long?
   ... How long is the test harness useful to the community?
   ... I said a couple of years...I asked Manu if he has any issues
   hosting it.
   ... The two questions are: Does the group have any strong preference
   for where it's hosted?
   ... Do we think it does need to be hosted for a number of years?

   Michael: The online version could run there, and a version to
   download.

   Manu: Yep, no problem hosting.

   Manu: we have no problem continuing to host the harness
   ... also willing to check it in to the W3C CVS repository
   ... already available for download

   ShaneM: Easier to maintain if it's kept at Digital Bazaar.

   Ben: Could we proxy it?

   Ralph: We'd rather not proxy to non W3C host.

   Ben: Okay, are you willing to keep hosting it, Manu?

   Manu: Yes.

   Michael: The only thing I need are the EARL reports.

   Manu: Elias wanted EARL report generation to be cleaned up.

   Ben: About the process - is all we need the implementation report?

   Ralph: We have to respond to all comments and issues.
   ... The implementation report is the main thing we need.
   ... It doesn't need to be exhaustive, we just have to show that
   there are 2 implementations of everything.

   Michael: I will be gone at 14th July, back on the 25th.

   Ben: I'd like to make sure that we include Javascript parsers in
   final report.

   Ralph: It would be good to document as many as we can - although,
   it's not essential.
   ... if we were to publish PR on Aug 1st, we'd probably need to give
   them 8 weeks to respond.
   ... Publishing the PR any time in August would push us back to
   September.

   Ben: Even if we did it on July 21st, it would still push us back
   that far right?

   Michael: Well, if I'm not here, the XSLT is online.

   Ben: We don't need to rush you back from vacation - let's take a
   look at what we have on July 18th and aim for August 1st for PR
   request.
   ... The primer is a note, but people seem to be interested in
   validation. I feel like adding tweaks on how to validate to the
   Primer.

   ShaneM: You can do that at any time.

   Steven: +1

   <mhausenblas> re validation see [32]rdfa.info/wiki/How-to-validate

     [32] http://rdfa.info/wiki/How-to-validate

   Ben: What about syntax/editorial issues? Should we make that
   coincide with end of CR?

   Ralph: We need to make editorial corrections at PR

   Ben: Then we should modify editors draft.

   Ralph: Yes, but make sure any change made is editorial.

   Ben: Alans comment is the only non-editorial, but we will only make
   editorial changes.
   ... I think we know what we have to do for CR.

   ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness +
   EARL [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

RDFa Tools & Examples

   Ben: I think there are opportunities to help people make sense of
   RDFa via little tools.
   ... What are the big needs that we see as far as tools are
   concerned.

   Manu: working on Fuzzbot for FF2 and FF3
   ... working on slashdot
   ... finalizing hAudio

   Michael: working on image/flickr stuff, see e.g.
   [34]CaMiCatzee/wrapper.php?report=http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf

     [34] http://sw.joanneum.at/CaMiCatzee/wrapper.php?report=http://danbri.org/foaf.rdf

   Ben: There's a chance to talk Songbird folks into using RDFa?
   ... It would work well with Creative Commons.
   ... I can talk to Songbird folks - let's coordinate and chat with
   them.

   Manu: That would be great.

   Michael: Are you still in contact with Flickr guys?
   ... What they have for RDFa is wierd...

   Ben: I'm working my way to them... they're a good candidate for
   RDFa.
   ... I'll keep pushing towards them.

   Michael: They do really wierd things...

   Ben: I know, they're playing around with it now - need a little
   guidance... see what I can do.
   ... One more thing
   ... A lot of people are wondering what they get now with RDFa.
   ... Right now, we can start pitching Search Monkey.
   ... The idea of separation of concern... they could be both the
   producer and consumer of site data.
   ... one person can write up RDFa, the Javascript developers can
   write stuff to consume RDFa.
   ... That approach has been successful with some people.

   Steven: that's a good argument, separate meaning from function.

   Ben: I'll try to find some time to work on our stuff internally...
   to build something with that architecture in mind.
   ... any other thoughts?

   Michael: There is a paper I presented up there - it's important to
   have lots of RDFa widgets.
   ... the stuff in that paper isn't publicly available, but it's up
   there.
   ... we should highlight tools - no need to write RDFa at the low
   level.

   Ben: This is great, exactly what I'm getting at.

   Micheal: It's functional...

   Ben: Anything else?
   ... Keep this stuff going - more implementations, more tools.

   Michael: Comment on this [35]ISWC tutorial page if you can.

     [35] http://semanticweb.joanneum.at/tutorials/iswc08-rdfa

   Ben: This gives us the opportunity to pitch RDFa to semantic web
   crowd.

   Steven: Don't forget about Raptor.

   ShaneM: small group inside Google uses Raptor.

   Steven: We need to think about how a page should be treated as RDFa.

   Ben: Can we do the 10th?

   Steven: yes.

   Ralph:regrets for next week

   Michael: yes

   Manu: yes

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to follow up with Elias on JavaScript test harness
   + EARL [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Steven migrate VEVENT examples to rdfa.info wiki
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben followup with Fabien on getting his RDFa GRDDL
   transform transferred to W3C [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write haudio examples for wiki [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2007/11/15-rdfa-minutes.html#action01
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   [DONE] ACTION: Manu check edit permissions on rdfa.info/wiki
   [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
   [DONE] ACTION: Shane write geolocation examples for wiki [recorded
   in [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
   [DONE] ACTION: Steven write vevent examples for wiki [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

     [46] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action10
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action08

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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