- From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 04 Dec 2008 12:28:19 -0500
- To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org,public-swd-wg@w3.org
The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon is available:
http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-minutes.html
A text snapshot follows.
----
RDF-in-XHTML Task Force
04 Dec 2008
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Dec/0005.html
See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-11-20
[3] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/04-rdfa-irc
[4] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html
Attendees
Present
Ralph Swick, Shane McCarron, Manu Sporny, Ben Adida
Regrets
Michael
Chair
Ben
Scribe
Ralph
Contents
* Topics
1. Action Items
2. @prefix
* Summary of Action Items
_____________________________________________________
Manu: what happens after end of December? Keep meeting?
Ralph: SWD WG expects to resolve to ask for SKOS CR transition by 16
December and then I will ask for a 4-month extension to SWD WG
charter
... this would allow us to formally continue to talk about RDFa
futures
... on a personal level, I think it would be a mistake to change
RDFa until there is clear support for a proposed change within the
HTML WG
Manu: it would be nice to be able to say "here is what we think
should be done"
... especially for the microformats community
... we'd be in a stronger position w.r.t. conversations with
microformats if we said we think @prefix and external profiles are a
good direction
Ben: what's the goal of such a statement? would you hope that people
start to use RDFa with @prefix?
Manu: yes, I think the community is stuck
... this has to do with vocabulary development
... the community is currently spending a lot of time on issues that
RDFa already solves
Ben: I think it works better to have a proposal with community
support to present to W3C rather than to expect W3C to pull the
community
Shane: we do talk about HTML5 a lot but it doesn't exist yet -- it's
only a Working Group
Ben: there are features of HTML5 that browsers do currently deploy
Shane: none of these deployed features have anything to do with
microformats
Ben: call it whatever; we know there is desire to deploy RDFa in
HTML without @xmlns
... in the end, we'll have the same proposal for HTML
... so the thing we ought to do is show how to deploy RDFa in HTML4
now, get it to validate, etc.
Manu: yep
<ShaneM> topics - validation in non-xml documents, definition of
non-prefixed items, changing of default prefix on the fly
<ShaneM> @prefix SOLVES the problem of validating in non-xml
documents. it is INDEPENDENT of the other two topics IMHO
<ShaneM> the ability to extend the collection of non-prefixed terms
is interesting, but NOT REQUIRED.
<ShaneM> changing the default prefix on the fly is a CHANGE to RDFa
overall, independent of whether a document is XML or not, and
whether it uses @prefix or not
<ShaneM> hmm - that might not be true. I think you MUST use @prefix
if you want to change the default CURIE prefix.
-> [9]Tuesday SWD WG telecon discussion of charter extension
[9] http://www.w3.org/2008/12/02-swd-minutes.html#item06
Action Items
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[10]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[10] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
ACTION: [DONE] Shane to update the errata document to reflect that
step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan
who sent private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in
[11]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[11] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
[12]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[12] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
Ben: I've done part of this, still need to update wiki
ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[13] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
Ben: I've made a bit of progress on this
... reactions to the new wiki layout?
Manu: new layout is better than the old
ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[14]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[14] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
piece [recorded in
[15]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[15] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
Manu: I've been hoping to implement it first :)
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[16] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
<msporny> [17]http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/bitmunk-case-study/
[17] http://rdfa.digitalbazaar.com/bitmunk-case-study/
Manu: I wrote a draft but Ivan wants a rewrite
... draft explains what our company is doing
... Ivan would like this draft posted as a longer story and a
shorter version for the use case wiki
ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
in [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[18] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
Manu: basically modifying their templates but it's a bit more
involved
... adding SIOC
Ben: how about roping Steve Williams from digg into this?
... perhaps just tell him what you're thinking
... digg is also thinking about SIOC
... so showing them your vocabulary ideas could be a useful trigger
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[19] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[20]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[20] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[21]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[21] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[22] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
@prefix
Ben: Mark has a draft blog post on @prefix
Shane: there are several topics and they're independent
... we could come up with credible solutions on pieces
... 1. defining prefix mappings in non-XML grammars
... we've proposed @prefix and a syntax; everyone seems to be
onboard, with some semantic extensions
Ralph: do the inheritance rules for @prefix exactly match those for
@xmlns?
Shane: I was looking at default namespaces as they relate to CURIEs
... that's a separate topic
Ben: there seemed to be some different between HEAD and BODY rules
... did I read too much into the discussion?
... given that HTML allows metadata in HEAD ...
Shane: at that time we were talking about using <link @rel='prefix'
...> and that's a separable issue
Ben: so current @prefix thinking is that inheritance works exactly
like @xmlns?
Shane: yes
Ben: I think we could agree on a syntax like @prefix='a=URI1 b=URI2
...'
Manu: there was a notion that @prefix might hold more than just what
is in this document
... there was also a question of what happens in @prefix='URI'
... i.e. default prefixes, or a vocabulary that could be pulled-in
to define other prefixes
Ben: pulling in another vocabulary wouldn't conflict with this
syntax
<ShaneM> [23]http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4#Prefix_Mappings
[23] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4#Prefix_Mappings
Shane: the wiki page supports these sorts of extensions
... could debate whether it makes sense to redefine the default
prefix
Ben: I agree the three items under 'Future Handling' can be
considered separately
... Mark was thinking about something that would pull in a local
vocabulary for one section of a document
Shane: want to separate the topics; validating v. changing the
extensibility model of RDFa
Ben: I believe there is consensus on the first bullet;
@prefix='prefix=URI'
... I don't see consensus on the second bullet @prefix='=URI'
Manu: microformats added bullets 2 and 3 because we didn't feel
@profile was the place to extend RDFa functionality
... this is more in the 3rd bullet; extensibility via @prefix or via
@profile
... the issue of setting the default namespace is in both worlds
Ben: if we want to make it easy to markup common formats, such as a
page on a social network, will we want to be able to pull terms from
multiple vocabularies?
... if so, the way to simplify this is not by defining lots of
prefixes but to include pre-packages bundles of terms
Manu: so maybe the 2nd bullet is unnecessary
Ben: yes, 2nd could be subsumed in 3rd
... but 2nd is also a trivial generalization of 1st bullet
... however, this also makes @prefix do more than @xmlns [which we
might not want]
... I like simplifying the social network bundle of terms case
Manu: I can't think of a strong use case for bullet 2 given that we
implement 1 and 3
Ben: right, could have a bundle that only uses 1 vocabulary, so
little marginal value to bullet 2
Manu: bullet 2 came before we'd thought out bullet 3 completely
Shane: I don't agree with Mark's approach; I think it's overly
simplistic
... it doesn't takes advantage of the essential RDF-ness of the
environment
... and it doesn't really address the microformat case in a way that
makes it easy to extend XMDT
<ShaneM>
[24]http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies#Discovering_new_unprefix
ed_CURIEs
[24] http://rdfa.info/wiki/RDFa_Vocabularies#Discovering_new_unprefixed_CURIEs
Shane: Manu wrote a separate proposal ^^
... making it easy to markup microformat definitions in a way that
defines vocabulary terms
... whatever we do here should be grounded in RDF
Ralph: yay Shane!
Shane: unless he's changed his approach, Mark was defining a way to
map prefixes to URIs
... this is using xmlns to define macros, rather than using RDF to
define vocabularies
... vocabulary terms need to be grounded in URIs to allow a
follow-your-nose processing engine to follow the URIs
Ben: the intermediate document could be RDF
Shane: but Mark hasn't proposed this
Manu: Mark was just showing a technically nifty way to use @prefix
to expand terms without having to consult an external document
... but we recognize it would also be helpful to be able to provide
an external RDF document that defines prefixes
... I think Mark was opposed to having to load these external
documents
Shane: I understand why it might be unattractive to _have_ to load
an external document to understand unprefixed CURIEs
... RDF interpretation requires dereferencing prefix mappings, which
I maintain has to be done anyway
Ben: Mark was talking about bundles of vocabularies which seems to
me to require external documents
Shane: Mark had a syntax for doing this inline in the document, but
I don't know why you'd want to bundle this into every document
... Mark did write that this _can_ be embedded locally if there was
a consistent syntax
Ben: I see little value in such embedding
Shane: our debate should be about how to derive the meaning, not
about the syntax
Ben: so I think we have consensus about @prefix='p1=u1 p2=u2 ...'
... and that @prefix='=u1' seems not to have value
... and @prefix='u1' may have value and should be further
investigated
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to add public-rdfa examples to wiki and think
of slightly improved top-level organization [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put up information on "how to write RDFa"
with screencast possibly and instructions on bookmarklet. [recorded
in [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
[27]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
piece [recorded in
[28]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases
for Ivan. [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]
[PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot. [recorded
in [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
[recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to send Ben ubiquity related wizard stuff
[recorded in
[32]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
[33]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
[recorded in
[34]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]
[PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
[35]http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[25] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[26] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/06-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[27] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
[28] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action04
[29] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action09
[30] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[31] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
[32] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
[33] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action13
[34] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action14
[35] http://www.w3.org/2008/09/11-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[DONE] ACTION: Shane to update the errata document to reflect that
step 6 has extra text about a new subject - also respond to Johan
who sent private mail, copying the task force. [recorded in
[36]http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
[36] http://www.w3.org/2008/11/20-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
[End of minutes]
_____________________________________________________
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Received on Thursday, 4 December 2008 17:28:58 UTC