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meeting record: 2008-08-28 RDFa telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 13:46:48 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20080828134519.05797458@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org,public-swd-wg@w3.org

The minutes of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] are ready.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html

A text snapshot follows.

----

                        RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

28 Aug 2008

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0123.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2008-08-21

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Shane McCarron, Steven Pemberton, Mark Birbeck,
          Manu Sporny, Ben Adida, Michael Hausenblas

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Review
         2. Status of RDFa Syntax/Primer and CURIE spec
         3. HTML5/RDFa discussion
         4. Microformats.org using RDFa as expression language?
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

Action Review

   <msporny> [11]21-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#ActionSummary

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy review and consider expanding the
   description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa
   [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write a pending test case for literal
   property and no child nodes [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite
   license on 28 Aug [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [PENDING] Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI
   resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22

   ACTION: [PENDING] Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: [PENDING] Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: [PENDING] Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for Ivan.
   [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

   ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS.
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]

   ACTION: [DONE] Michael to update Test Suite Manifest to correct
   tests 52 and 53 descriptions. [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: [PENDING] Ralph to make
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [28] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: [PENDING] Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded
   in [29]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21

   ACTION: [PENDING] Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
   XSLT URI [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06

   ACTION: [PENDING] Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

Status of RDFa Syntax/Primer and CURIE spec

   Ben: let's not discuss CURIE spec but I'd like a status update

   Steven: the TAG asked for an extension of the comment period, which
   we've granted
   ... so the actual deadline is the XHTML2 WG f2f at the Technical
   Plenary week

   Shane: we do have some editorial changes since the CURIE Last Call
   which you'll find reflected in the editor's draft

   Ben: anything the XHTML2 WG needs from us?

   Steven: the SemWeb Deployment WG agreed to provide a comment as well

   Ralph: and Jeremy has that action on behalf of SWD

   Ben: RDFa Syntax has been approved to go to PR by both SWD and
   XHTML2 WGs
   ... we're missing a response from AlanR on issue 122
   ... I neglected to ask the WG to explicitly vote to publish the
   Primer

   ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa Primer
   [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]

   Ralph: what about NoahM's late comment?

   -> [33]Ralph's proposed response to Noah

     [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2008Aug/0115.html

   <msporny> +1 for clarifying that RDFa applies to XHTML.

   Ralph: I propose an editorial change to the Abstract

   <Steven> +1

   Ben: maybe the point about subsetting the graph is not correct
   anyway
   ... if a parser only produces part of the graph, it may not be doing
   the right thing

   Manu: we shouldn't say that it's OK to ignore triples

   Ben: it would only be implementing half of the parser

   Shane: it's easy to separate the philosophical issue from the actual
   comment we have received
   ... the comment suggests that we move the processor conformance
   requirements elsewhere

   <ShaneM> [34]rdfa-syntax-20080905/#s_conformance

     [34] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/PR-rdfa-syntax-20080905/#s_conformance

   Shane: I disagree with this comment
   ... we have 3 subsections of our conformance requirements
   ... 4.1 talks about document conformance and is about markup
   ... 4.2 talks about user agent conformance
   ... 4.3 talks about processor conformance
   ... these are all necessary and are all fine as they are
   ... the philosophical discussion about whether it's ok to subset the
   triples would be a 4.4 and we don't need to have that discussion
   today
   ... the sort of processor we've talked about is one that gives you
   all the triples

   Ralph: I agree with Shane's separation of those issues
   ... don't engage in the philosophical debate about subsetting now

   Steven: I think Noah is thinking about optimizations
   ... we don't need to say anything about this
   ... if an application optimizes away something and we can't tell
   from the outside, it doesn't matter
   ... if the application produces the same results as one that did not
   optimize, we don't care
   ... "as long as the output is the same as if the application had
   produced the full graph, we don't care"

   Ben: we just talk about producing the graph

   Shane: technically we just talk about the processor

   Ben: so the application is out of our scope

   Mark: Noah may not be trying to distinguish between the application
   layer and the processor layer
   ... however, the idea of the default graph runs through both the
   language and the processor and I don't see a simple way to separate
   these quickly
   ... I don't think the comment is so much about a distinction between
   application layers and processor layers

   Ralph: so a combination of Shane's 3 points and the idea that the
   default graph is intertwined throughout makes us not wish to do a
   major document rearrangement at this time

   <Steven> I think in Noah's mail that he meant <prefix:html
   xmlns:prefix="[35]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en">"

     [35] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml

   <ShaneM> New text: A strictly conforming XHTML+RDFa document is a
   document that requires only the facilities described as mandatory in
   this specification. Such a document satisfies the following
   criteria:

   ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]

   Ben: I've already written the transform to produce the CR
   Disposition of Comments

   Shane: I've already integrated all of the changes proposed in
   Ralph's message

HTML5/RDFa discussion

   Ben: background on why this discussion is taking place now rather
   than later
   ... Creative Commons has been working on the ccRel specification for
   a while
   ... we decided to submit it to W3C to be published as a Member
   Submission
   ... it got a lot of attention when W3C published it
   ... and it mentions RDFa
   ... so that started the discussion

   <mhausenblas> [37]my 2c on the ongoing HTML5 discussion :)

     [37] http://news.oreilly.com/2008/08/html4ever-or-the-next-logical.html

   -> [38]HTML5 discussion

     [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2008Aug/

   Shane: why isn't this discussion on the [39]HTML WG list?

     [39] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Aug/

   <ShaneM> been pondering HTML4 and RDFa - some noodling here:
   [40]http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

     [40] http://www.rdfa.info/wiki/RDFainHTML4

   ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

   Manu: there's not a lot of understanding of RDF, RDF/XML, and RDFa
   and the differences within the HTML WG; we're building an
   understanding of the benefits of structured data in markup

   Michael: I saw Guus' announcement [42]requesting PR transition
   ... should I update the implementation report now?

     [42] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2008Aug/0086.html

   <Steven> If all design was done by paving cow paths, no one would
   ever build bridges

   Ralph: sure, fine to add to the Implementation Report
   ... it will be useful to the Director when the PR transition
   decision is made (next week)

Microformats.org using RDFa as expression language?

   Manu: folk are getting tired of the problem that a new microformats
   parser is needed every time a new microformat is created
   ... the question now being considered within the microformats
   community is whether to reuse the RDFa attributes but not put URIs
   in them
   ... what would we think about this?

   Mark: I like the sentiment but I take issue with the specifics
   ... in a previous discussion we'd debated whether attributes ought
   to have different meanings in different contexts and decided they
   should not
   ... now we have a fixed list of values recognized in CURIEs when
   they appear without a prefix
   ... it would not be too hard to make that list extensible by others
   ... e.g. "within this DIV, unprefixed names come from <somewhere
   else>"
   ... would be a bridge between microformats and RDFa

   Ben: I second that
   ... microformats repurpose some HTML attributes
   ... and the Accessiblity community raised issues with this; e.g.
   misuse of @title
   ... as RDFa explicitly ignores other unprefixed values in CURIEs,
   that's an extensibility opportunity
   ... but [for example] redefining @typeof would be a mistake
   ... if the goal is to get to a single parser vs. a
   parser-per-microformat then our goal is to be sure that the markup
   always means the same thing
   ... so let's work on that together

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to discuss CURIEs and microformats

   Shane: our reserved values are interpreted as URIs at the end of the
   day

   Manu: what microformats really cares about is to be able to write
   @rel='title' without having to explain anything else
   ... their concern is that to have to add a ':' would be difficult to
   explain to users
   ... the underlying implementation is less of a concern; it's about
   the actual markup

   Shane: we'll need to prioritize where we put our effort next and
   this could be it if it gets the microformat community into the fold
   more quickly

   <markbirbeck> I believe the key to this is to make a really simple
   'flip' in CURIEs (wish we'd thought of it before). Instead of
   @rel="license" being an 'unprefixed' value, we should see it as
   'unsuffixed'.

   <markbirbeck> Then all we're concerned about is providing more and
   more techniques for defining prefixes.

   <markbirbeck> @xmlns was always seen as only one way to define a
   prefix.

   Manu: as long as there's someone from RDFa advising the microformat
   community we should be in good shape

   Ben: I appreciate Mark's foresight in pushing for RDFa to ignore
   unprefixed values

   [adjourned]

   Michael: regrets for next week

   ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address RDFa as
   unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]

   Ralph: I'm available next week but not the two weeks after that

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben add Noah's comments to the tracker [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben ask SWD to approve publication of an updated RDFa
   Primer [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action20]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to upload test harness source code to W3C CVS.
   [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action13]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to work with Microformats community to address
   RDFa as unified markup for uFs. [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
   [NEW] ACTION: Manu to write summary for Semantic Web Use Cases for
   Ivan. [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ralph update draft response to Noah [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/28-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy review and consider expanding the
   description of TopBraid in the RDFa wiki [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Jeremy to demonstrate GRDDL with XHTML/RDFa once
   the NS URI is set up. [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Jamie McCarthy about an AskSlashdot
   piece [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu talk with Michael Smethurst at BBC about RDFa
   [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu to create test cases for testing relative URI
   resolution (href/CURIEs/etc). [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write a pending test case for literal
   property and no child nodes [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Manu write the perl code for Slashdot [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark create base wizard suitable for cloning
   [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write foaf examples for wiki [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to create 'RDFa for uF users' on RDFa Wiki
   [recorded in
   [59]http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph prepare to summarize new W3C test suite
   license on 28 Aug [recorded in
   [60]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph think about RSS+RDFa [recorded in
   [61]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph to make
   [62]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt happen recorded in
   [63]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to start a wiki page for HTML4/5 [recorded
   in [64]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to update XHTML ns document to point to new
   XSLT URI [recorded in
   [65]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Shane to write home page for SPREAD. [recorded in
   [66]http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12]

     [50] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action24
     [51] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [52] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action23
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/31-rdfa-minutes.html#action22
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action02
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action07
     [59] http://www.w3.org/2008/03/13-rdfa-minutes.html#action12
     [60] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action03
     [61] http://www.w3.org/2008/06/26-rdfa-minutes.html#action11
     [62] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/rdfa-xslt
     [63] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action05
     [64] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action21
     [65] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/24-rdfa-minutes.html#action06
     [66] http://www.w3.org/2008/07/03-rdfa-minutes.html#action12

   [DONE] ACTION: Michael to update Test Suite Manifest to correct
   tests 52 and 53 descriptions. [recorded in
   [67]http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02]

     [67] http://www.w3.org/2008/08/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action02

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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