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[RDFa] meeting record: 2007-03-05 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2007 15:01:52 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20070305145810.00c25cf0@127.0.0.1>
To: public-swd-wg@w3.org, public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The record of today's RDF-in-XHTML Task Force telecon [1] are ready
for review.

[1] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes

Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
         3. Test Suite Update
         4. XHTML 1.1 Module Update
         5. 5. Setting a Schedule

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported by RDFa [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on June 1 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]

[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

[PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[DONE] ACTION: Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
 
[DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

A text snapshot follows: 
----

                        RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

5 Mar 2007

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0013.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, [4]Previous 2007-02-12

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Michael Hausenblas, Wing Yung, Steven Pemberton,
          Simone Onofri, Ben Adida, Elias Torres, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Items
         2. Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)
         3. Test Suite Update
         4. XHTML 1.1 Module Update
         5. 5. Setting a Schedule
     * Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________

    Simone: my name is pronounced (as Ralph hears it) "see moan eh"

Action Items

   ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki page
   [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

   Michael: I agreed to support that action for Ben

   <mhausenblas> [13]RiR

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/#sec4

   Michael: [14]RiR is meant to be a list of features supported by RDFa
   ... e.g. containers probably are 'in', reification is probably 'out'
   ... I can add more detail to the list and I may have missed some
   features

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/#sec4

   Ben: TimBL might add some examples of N3 that cannot be expressed in
   RDFa
   ... what are the 'levels' meant to indicate?

   Michael: links point to QA document
   ... allows for incremental enhancement of a spec

   Ben: I worry this idea of 'levels' might imply more complication
   than there really is

   Michael: we should decide whether to say 'this is all we support and
   no more' or indicate possible future features

   Ralph: is it still useful to have a Wiki page so the community can
   edit?

   Ben: I think so

   Michael: I can prepare a discussion of this in the Wiki
   ... don't want to duplicate work

   ACTION: [DONE] Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the
   W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   -> [16]action progress: test suite hosting [26]

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Feb/0130.html
     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0004.html

   ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type,
   etc. [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not supported
   by RDFa [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: [WITHDRAWN] Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded
   in [19]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   Ben: I thought about it so long that I missed the deadline
   ... I might talk during the W3C track

   ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   Ben: making some progress; Use Case document updated to include a
   little bit of Science Commons example
   ... still hope for a big realistic example to include

   ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last call on
   June 1 [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09

   Ben: I'd like feedback on this

   ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded
   in [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [CONTINUES]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

   Elias: I also am looking for a use case that adds more specifics
   ... deciding whether to go to WWW2007 or XTech; I submitted an
   RDFa/GRDDL talk

   Ben: a Use Case can be more abstract; can show "here's the triples
   we'd like to produce"

   ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
   relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that Elias started
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [CONTINUES]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

   <mhausenblas> [25]RDFa FAQ

     [25] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa#FAQ

   Ben: Simone, comments on the FAQ from your new fresh eyes would be
   especially useful

Latest Documents (Primer and Scenarios)

   Ben: I commited new updates to Primer and Scenarios on Friday
   ... mostly editorial, related to comments received

   -> [26]Update to RDFa Scenarios, including response to Comments Ben
   2007-03-02]

     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0004.html

   Ben: one comment remaining on clarifying the predicates should be
   cleaned up
   ... the document currently assumes namespaced classes
   ... are we comfortable enough with this to publish these WDs as they
   are?

   Ralph: "publish, publish, publish" It's not going to be perfect

   Steven: don't say I didn't warn you

   Ralph: WAI-ARIA is emphasizing use of @role, so I certainly don't
   think this discussion is over
   ... but let's publish and get comments

   <EliasT> I'm +1 to publishing. (dialing back in)

   PROPOSE: publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs

   <mhausenblas> +1

   <wing> +1

   <RalphS> +1

   <Simone> +1

   Steven: warning, re: use of @class

   RESOLVED Ask WG to publish Primer and Scenarios as WDs

   Ben: I would like to respond to Antoine's comment about multiple
   @rel and @property before publishing; I think it is one sentence

Test Suite Update

   -> [27]RDFa Test Suite

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/

   Ben: we're not providing enough feedback on the test suite

   <mhausenblas>
   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007M
   ar/0010.html

     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html

   Michael: DanC has given us lots of test suite feedback
   ... I'd like us to settle whether we're going to try to do
   conformance testing or not

   Michael: I would like just to claim that "any tool that claims to be
   RDFa-compliant has to correctly parse all the test cases"
   ... i.e. passing test suite is necessary but may not be sufficient
   ... DanC was commenting about what conformance testing could or
   should be
   ... he felt that we could not do conformance testing
   ... I hope to prove that something is conforming but not to try to
   prove non-conformance
   ... many specifications already provide conformance tests, though
   perhaps not as strong as what I envision

   Elias: is the problem just because of the word "conformance"? If so,
   let's drop that word

   Michael: look at -> [29]my response to Dan
   ... an agent that claims to be RDFa-aware must pass the test suite,
   but passing the test suite does not guarantee the agent is
   conforming

     [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Mar/0010.html

   Ben: what is the GRDDL test suite called?

   Elias: W3C does not bless implementations, so we're not required to
   do conformance tests
   ... all we need to do is provide guidance to developers

   Steven: the real reason for a test suite is to test the
   _specification_

   Ralph: I agree with Steven. DanC has used the test suite to
   determine how the WG has responded to a question.
   ... if a question is raised, one should develop a test to show how
   to answer it
   ... Dan has encouraged us to write a test case in response to any
   technical discussion.

   <mhausenblas> [30]Conformance testing discussion on QA

     [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-qa/2007Mar/0004.html

   Ben: so this seems to be about the usage of the term "conformance"
   ... I recommend continuing to build the input/output tests but drop
   the word "conformance"

   Michael: an agent can always trick the test suite by producing
   exactly what it requires yet not be a true implementation

   Ben: so the test suite is to help developers, help test the
   specification, but *not* to test implementations

   Elias: the SPARQL test suite gives a set of files and the expected
   output
   ... every SPARQL developer downloads the test suite and runs it
   themselves, then they can debate the test suite
   ... the SPARQL test suite does not invoke any code; it's just the
   input and expected output

   Mark: I agree that input and expected output is what Michael was
   doing but I don't think that is all we should do
   ... I'd like to provide an interface for people to test their
   endpoints
   ... concerned about only REST-based endpoint, as we haven't
   specified a REST requirement
   ... we should stop at just describing inputs and outputs
   ... the other side of what Dan is getting at is 'anytime we mention
   RDFa in a document we should add to the test suite'
   ... the moment we create a sample or a line of text in a paragraph,
   reflect this in the test suite with an input and output document

   Ben: are you suggesting we drop the REST test harness?

   Mark: no, it's useful but don't make it mandatory
   ... the REST harness should not be "the test suite" itself

   <mhausenblas>
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test
   -manifest.rdf

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/rdfa-test-manifest.rdf

   Michael: agree. First we should look at the manifest file

   <mhausenblas>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/testcases/

   Michael: rdfa-test-manifest is the source; everything else is
   generated by Wing's script

   <mhausenblas>
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/run-tc.html

   <wing> test case results are still TTL

   Michael: test runner is supplemental; it just helps test REST-based
   endpoints, but I'm happy to move the test runner elsewhere
   ... the mandatory part is just the manifest and the test case
   directory
   ... we've taken Mark's suggestion to add a SPARQL query to test that
   the expected triples are present
   ... the test asssertions are generated from the manifest

   Elias: what property is available in the manifest to cite, e.g. the
   irc log where we discuss a test?

   <mhausenblas>
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/testsuite/#RDFaTests

   Michael: see 'status'

   Elias: I'm looking for a property that describes why the test was
   written

   <mhausenblas> pls choose one from
   [35]http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html

     [35] http://www.w3.org/QA/2005/08/test-case-metadata.html

   Wing: we can use seeAlso

   Elias: also record when we accepted or rejected a test

   ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for tracking
   origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   Mark: sounds like we're moving closer to a W3C test ontology

   Wing: yep, we've been following that

   Ben: are we outputting RDFa on the test suite page? :)

   Michael: we've thought about that but aren't doing it yet

XHTML 1.1 Module Update

   ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
   [CONTINUES]

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06

   Mark: there's a document describing the modularization
   ... I've given comments to Shane
   ... sadly, Shane is ill right now
   ... he had agreed to write the schemas
   ... the RDFa schemas I wrote don't (yet) drop in smoothly
   ... I will work on this myself in Shane's absence
   ... I won't be able to pick this up again until next week
   ... I'll do the schemas and then we can review

   ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us where
   [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

     [38] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   Ben: would March 19 be a reasonable date to expect to see update
   schemas?

   Mark: I have had schemas on my server but they're old

   Ben: we should have some versions published in the W3C process to
   get feedback
   ... I don't want this to be a rushed, last-minute thing

   Mark: the work on XHTML modularization has been underway for a long
   time

   Ben: people will be looking at every little detail when we go to REC

   Mark: the draft is the primary thing; Shane has aligned this with
   the latest XHTML Modularization spec
   ... we won't gain by getting people to look at year-old schemas
   ... point people to Shane's draft now

   Ben: so let's hope to have schemas updated by March 19

   Mark: I'll have the schemas done by March 12

5. Setting a Schedule

   <mhausenblas> next week

   Mark's mashup demo

   MarkB: asked to demonstrate SideWinder
   ... framework to put together application "widgets"
   ... how do you get RDF? While you're browsing, etc...
   ... sidebar in IE and, while you're browsing, looks for RDFa in main
   window
   ... converts it, stores it, and different running sidewinder
   applications can run queries
   ... to pull data out. Example: google map that periodically maps
   events browsed.
   ... browsing process adds triples as you go, don't pay any
   attention.
   ... separate process renders items found.
   ... next stage is to combine that with previous data.
   ... parser also does microformat processing.
   ... main thing we're trying to do is to build stuff into the
   browser.
   ... no demo just yet, but working on it soon.

   ADJOURNED

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Wing add a property to the test case schema for
   tracking origin and approval of an individual test [recorded in
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11]

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/05-rdfa-minutes.html#action11

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
   supported by RDFa [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
   [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for
   last call on June 1 [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
   [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of
   n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
   where [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael to prepare RDF/XML - RDFa comparison wiki
   page [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that
   Elias started [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all
   mime type, etc. [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/23-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action09
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
     [49] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   [DONE] ACTION: Ralph to check if the test suite can be hosted at the
   W3C--is Tomcat available? [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

     [50] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/12-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   [DROPPED] ACTION: Ben to contemplate about the Dev Track [recorded
   in [51]http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

     [51] http://www.w3.org/2007/02/05-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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