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Meeting record 2007-07-19

From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:33:35 +0200
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Message-ID: <op.tvpz99fzsmjzpq@acer3010.lan>

http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html

A little rough at the edges I'm afraid, but I had to get them posted  
quickly.

In text:

                                - DRAFT -

                       Weekly RDFa Teleconference

19 Jul 2007

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-irc

Attendees

    Present
           +043316876aaaa, mhausenblas, Ralph, Ben, Steven, Simone,
           markbirbeck

    Regrets
    Chair
           Ben

    Scribe
           Steven

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Action items
          2. [6]@resource and @href on same element
          3. [7]interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel
      * [8]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <RalphS> Agenda: name: Smith, MacKenzie

    <RalphS> email: kenzie@MIT.EDU

    <RalphS> oops, strike that

    lol

    <RalphS> [9]previous 2007-07-12

       [9] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes

    <scribe> scribe: Steven

    <mhausenblas>

    <RalphS>
    [10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
    ul/0157.html

      [10]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0157.html

    <RalphS> [11]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1

      [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/actions/1

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
    (at w3.org) [recorded in
    [12]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]

      [12] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

Action items

    <RalphS> Ralph: I believe my request for
    [13]http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa in
    [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.h
    tml will be approved

      [13] http://www.w3.org/ns/rdfa
      [14]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swd-wg/2007Jun/0161.html

    <scribe> ACTION: [NEW] Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere
    proposal [recorded in
    [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

    <scribe> -- done

    <scribe> ACTION: [PENDING] Ben to look into Science Commons use case
    [recorded in
    [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [CONTINUES]

      [16] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

    <scribe> ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
    (at w3.org) [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15] [DONE]

      [17] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15

    <scribe> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
    [recorded in
    [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [CONTINUES]

      [18] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    <scribe> ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere
    [recorded in
    [19]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14] [DONE]

      [19] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

    <scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
    using @content [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]
    [POSTPONED]

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25

    <scribe> ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
    using @content after October [CONTINUES] [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

@resource and @href on same element

    Topic: @resource and @href on same element

    Ben: What happens?

    <mhausenblas>
    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
    ul/0110.html

      [22]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html

    <mhausenblas> ->

    Mh: How do you decide when something is dereferenceable?

    Ben: URI vs URN?

    MH: But with http: you don't know if a URI is dereferencable until
    you try

    Ben: Example?

    MH: [scribe misses]

    Ben: No, the idea of @resource in this proposal is to override href
    in the same way that @content overrides the real content
    ... @resource always overrides @href for the semantic purpose

    Bne: Any objections?

    Steven: Sounds mostly harmless

    Mark: In the case of @content we are thinking of the content
    providing the rdf:label
    ... in this case we could use the href in a similar way
    ... in any case the href shouldn't generate a new version of the
    same triple

    Ben: Need more time?

    Steven: Well I do, but I understand we are under time pressure

    <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask on @resource precedence ...

    <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to propose an action to make a test case

    <benadida> ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource
    @href on same element [recorded in
    [23]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

    Steven: I suppose my only problem is that RDFa is getting more and
    more complicated, while it started off so simple

    Ben: I think the fact that the clickable href may not be the
    semantic one is a good use case
    ... don't you think the similarity to @content convincing?

    Steven: I have many times needed @content, but never felt the need
    for @resoruce

    <RalphS> Simone: RDFa must remain simple to allow simple
    implementations.

    Simone: [muffled]

    Ben: Yes, but we mustn't be *too* simple
    ... it is a question of balance
    ... href should be mentioned iin the primer in the main section and
    @resource should be in the advanced section

    <Simone> Simone: I think we may remain simple, actually people uses
    Microformats and not other, as You said Ben, we must found a Good
    balance for simplicity ;)

    Ralph: I vote for keeping the primer simple, but I don't think we
    need a use case to justify this feature.
    ... in the primer
    ... but we do need it in the spec

    <RalphS> Ralph: for interoperability we need to specify the behavior
    when both attributes are used in the same element

    Steven: I'm worried that RDFa, which used to be describable in a
    paragraph is getting too complicated
    ... I haven't been convinced of the utility of @resoruce over just
    @href

    <RalphS> [24]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes#item02

    Mark: Well, this is standard rdf stuff, why do you think it is OK to
    have an href to a non-dereferencable URI?

    <RalphS> [25][RDFa] ISSUE-34: partial resolution to @href everywhere

      [25]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html

    Steven: I don't agree that it is so cut and dried that there is such
    a division

    <mhausenblas> +q

    <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say that we may not need to justify a
    use case

    Mark: Well, is something an information resource or not?
    ... that is a good distinction
    ... otherwise you can't talk about web pages, make statements about
    webpages

    Ben: We have another huge issue to discuss, so we are in a time bind
    here
    ... I have to ask if you can live with this
    ... especially since you are going on vacation

    Steven: I hadn't taken the discussion last week as a resolution of
    the @resource issue

    MH: Well, if you don't want to use @resource you don't have to use
    it
    ... it doesn't make the language more complicated

    Ben: Well as an author, but not as a consumer

    Ralph: We are concerned that @href should have effect outside of
    RDFa, and so is unsafe for us to rely on presentational behaviours,
    so I supported the addition of @resource
    ... I don't agree with Mark's interpretation about different types
    of URIs being approriate or not for the two attributes
    ... I think we need @resource because of href legacy
    ... I agree about avoiding complexity

    <RalphS> Steven: looking at the messages in the thread about
    introducing @href and @resource together, I was shocked at the
    complexity of the additional rules

    <RalphS> ... by slow accretion we've increased the complexity

    <RalphS> ... I have a feeling of uneasiness about the addition of
    new rules

    <RalphS> Ben: the additional rules had to do with the next issue,
    considering striping, not so much this one

    Mark: But I haven't heard a good reason for why you think it is OK
    to put a URN in an href

    Steven: But I don'; think that that is wrong
    ... a browser could dereference such a thing
    ... even if current browsers don't
    ... I can imagine ways it could be done

    Mark: But the current practice for href is that it points at a
    dereferencable thing

    Ralph: I didn't want this argument today
    ... but I don't think we need to differentiate between two sorts of
    URI

    <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask Steven about the scope of
    worry

    MH: Steven, are you worried about complecity for authors or
    implementors?

    Steven: Both, but mostly authors

    <RalphS> Ralph: <a href="urn:..."> doesn't do very much useful in
    today's browsers but it's not improper.

    Ben: Even if Mark is wrong, the risk is small
    ... in the future we could delete the feature if we don't need it

    <markbirbeck> Ralph...it creates a blue link in today's browsers. :)

    Ralph: I'd rather people use href, but I think there is a need for
    resource

    Ben: The reason we think rdfa is better is because we have thought
    through the edge cases
    ... I hope you can live with this Steven
    ... I agree that it is bigger than it was, but that's because there
    is a lot of interest from other people

    <RalphS> Steven: I am willing to live with @resource

    Steven: I am willing to say I can live with it, in order to move
    forward

    (I said the same about @class by the way)

    RESOLUTION: @href and @resource everywhere

    <benadida> ... and that @resource overrides @href as per
    [26]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
    ul/0110.html

      [26]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jul/0110.html

    RESOLUTION: @resource overrides @href as per Ben's propoal

    <mhausenblas> +1

    <RalphS> I can live with this too

    Ben: Steven's worries noted
    ... I had to live with not using @class, so I know how you feel

    <RalphS> [telecon extended +15 mins]

interaction of @instanceof, @about, and @rel

    Ben: Whatever @instanceof is called
    ... instanceof represents rdf:type

    <benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows">

    <benadida> <span property="foaf:name">Ben</span>

    <benadida> </div>

    Ben: This is useful for a lot of cases

    <benadida> <div rel="foaf:knows" instanceof="foaf:Person">

    <benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows"
    instanceof="foaf:Person">

    <benadida> <#bar> foaf:knows _:div0

    Ben: Without the instanceof here, it would mean the triple above
    ... but what does instanceof apply to? bar or bnode
    ... I think bnode

    Mark: It feels like it should apply to the @about

    <benadida> <div about="#bar" rel="foaf:knows">

    <benadida> <link rel="rdf:type" href="foaf:Person">

    <benadida> </div>

    Mark: It would allow you to build up by adding more people to who
    you know

    \s/MS/Ma/

    Ben: So you agree?

    Mark: Yes

    <Zakim> mhausenblas, you wanted to ask what happens with additional
    id?

    MH: What about if there is an id?

    Ben: Not so fast

    <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to say if intuition doesn't match the
    specification we're creating a long-term problem for ourselves

    Ralph: The intuition of people coming fresh to this is important,
    and they are likely to assume the subject in this case
    ... we shouldn't try to justify a non-intuitive interpretation

    Mark: If you add it progressively, I think it makes sense
    ... maybe @about is going to be less common than we have thought
    ... you could rewrite lots of examples differently, so that
    href/resource would be more likely

    Ben: The complication is that in the past we have been annotating
    existing content
    ... [scribe doesn't understand]

    Mark: You mean you think people will use href for the subject a lot

    Ben: I can't say for sure
    ... but may be
    ... I think striping will happen in RDFa
    ... we do need a shorthand for rdf:type
    ... there is a necessar level of complexity

    <benadida> <a about="/photo1" rel="license"
    href="[27]http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/">foo</a>

      [27] http://cc.org/licenses/1.0/

    Ben: we do need @about

    <benadida> <span resource="/photo">

    <benadida> <a rel="license" href="...">

    <benadida> </span>

    <benadida> <img rel="license" src=...>

    Ralph: Does the right thing happen if you use img src= ?

    Ben: Yes

    Mark: You mean if the src has /photo ?
    ... then you would need rev

    Ralph: Then I think this is unintuitive

    Ben: There might be complex rules for whacky use, but best practice
    will always be easy

    Mark: We have to resolve what happens if @resource and @src coexist
    on an element

    Ralph: I need to reread the thread

    <RalphS> Ralph: I'm concerned about the intuition regarding <img
    src="/photo1" rel="license" href="[28]http://c.org/licenses/1.0/" />
    and the <a about="/photo1"> example

      [28] http://c.org/licenses/1.0/

    Ben: Please send your thoughts Steven before you go on vacation of
    possible

    <mhausenblas> Please use ->
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure as an
    example repository

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa/ProposedStructure

    Ben: Mark, we need to come up with a consistent story on this

    <RalphS> next meeting: 26 July

    [adjourn]


Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Ben to sum up @href/@resource everywhere proposal
    [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10]
    [NEW] ACTION: MichaelH to put together test cases for @resource
    @href on same element [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action09]

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/12-rdfa-minutes.html#action10

    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
    [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
    [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [PENDING] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax when
    using @content after October [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action08]

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
      [33] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    [POSTPONED] ACTION: MarkB to work rdf:label back into RDFa syntax
    when using @content [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25]

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2007/03/19-rdfa-minutes.html#action25

    [DONE] ACTION: Ben/Ralph to figure out the RDFa-GRDDL-profile URI
    (at w3.org) [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15]
    [DONE] ACTION: Mark get input from Joost on @HREF everywhere
    [recorded in
    [37]http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14]

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/14-rdfa-minutes.html#action15
      [37] http://www.w3.org/2007/06/21-rdfa-minutes.html#action14

    [End of minutes]
      _________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 19 July 2007 16:33:56 GMT

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