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Minutes/Meeting record 29 January 2007

From: Steven Pemberton <steven.pemberton@cwi.nl>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 16:38:06 +0100
To: RDFa <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <op.tmw9psylsmjzpq@acer3010.lan>

In colour at:

    http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html

In monochrome here:

                                - DRAFT -

                         RDF-in-XHTML Task Force

29 Jan 2007

    [2]Agenda

       [2]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jan/0037.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Michael_Hausenblas, Ben_Adida, Ralph, Steven, MarkB_

    Regrets
    Chair
           Ben

    Scribe
           Steven

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]FTF Results
          2. [6]XHTML 1.1 Module
          3. [7]Action items
          4. [8]FtF Slight return
          5. [9]Cambridge SemWeb get-together demo
          6. [10]Overloading @CLASS
          7. [11]Wrap up
      * [12]Summary of Action Items
      _________________________________________________________



    <RalphS> Previous: 2007-01-08
    [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007J
    an/0009.html

      [13]  
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2007Jan/0009.html

    <RalphS> F2F minutes:
    [14]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes#item01

      [14] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes#item01

FTF Results

    [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes#item01

      [15] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes#item01

    Ben: We agreed to potentially take all three of our docs to Rec
    track

    Michael: Please remind people reviewing doc to CC our mailing list

    Ben: Agreed

XHTML 1.1 Module

    Ben: April 1 is the decision day for deciding if this module should
    go to Rec
    ... let's in any case not be bogged down by the problems around
    HTML/XHTML

    Mark: The module is fine
    ... I've been doing work on it, been working with Shane a lot
    ... I've been updating it to match the new Modularization schema's
    (v1.1)
    ... but it seems like I have used some incorrect schemas
    ... so Shane is trying to sort it out
    ... it's not a lot of work, more coordination
    ... I'll try to do it Wednesday, during the XHTML call

    <RalphS> Steven: there are two "1.1"s:

    <RalphS> ... Modularization 1.1 and XHTML 1.1

    <RalphS> ... both will be rev'd; Modularization first, then XHTML

    <RalphS> ... Modularization 1.1 is about to go to Proposed Rec; it's
    completed Last Call, needs no CR

    <RalphS> ... Modularization 1.1 includes schemas

    <RalphS> [16]XHTML Modularization 1.1 Last Call WD

      [16] http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-xhtml-modularization-20060705/

    <RalphS> Steven: XHTML Modularization 1.0 only does DTDs, so it's
    not of much use to RDFa

    Mark: There is nothing to stop us doing a draft of RDFa anyway, but
    it is easier if they walk in step
    ... but there's no timing problem

    Ben: Can we make mid-end February?

    Mark: Should be fine

    Ben: Can it be put up somewhere just so we can look at it?

    Mark: Yes, I can put it in our source control; it's just some
    schemas

    Ben: Excellent

    <scribe> ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
    where [recorded in
    [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

    <mhausenblas> [18]http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa

      [18] http://esw.w3.org/topic/RDFa

    Michael: One other point
    ... we need to clarify the FAQ
    ... particularly the one about using RDFa with any version of HTML

    Ben: We've answered that question many times

    <RalphS> Is Michael talking about 2.1.1. Can I use RDFa on any HTML
    version?

    <RalphS> Steven: differentiate _valid_ HTML and _conformant_ HTML

    <RalphS> ... since the HTML rules say to ignore elements and
    attributes you don't recognize

    <RalphS> ... validation is a question

    <RalphS> ... it's important to distinguish between _valid_ and
    _conformant; when people use new things it's important that they
    know this is not an error

    <RalphS> Ben: people also want to know how the new things will
    affect browser rendering

    Michael: This point comes up regularly when people compare RDFa with
    Microformats

    <MarkB_> Also should incorporate the 'gentle slope' idea:
    [19]http://rdfa.info/2006/06/08/rdfa-the-gentle-road-to-rdf/

      [19] http://rdfa.info/2006/06/08/rdfa-the-gentle-road-to-rdf/

    <RalphS> Ben: but there is no W3C branded validator that will accept
    new elements and attributes

Action items

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to update uc2, image src, uc4, no innerHTML,
    add link to GetN3 bookmarklet [recorded in
    [20]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]
    [DONE]

      [20] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action15

    <RalphS> ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that
    Elias started [recorded in
    [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [CONTINUES]

      [21] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    <RalphS> Michael: I did some work, would like to invite others to
    contribute

    <RalphS> ... ok to leave "ToDo's" for me

    <RalphS> ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker
    [recorded in
    [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
    [CONTINUES]

      [22] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

    <RalphS> Michael: the mail generated by tracker currently goes
    [only] to the SWD WG list

    Ralph: Two things came out of the FtF: 1) That SWD are aware and
    feel ownership of issues
    ... I will look into tracker sending mails to both lists

    <RalphS> [23]SWD issues list

      [23] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/track/issues

    Ralph: I think when the new XHTML WG is underway, we should
    reevaluate the division of mail to WG lists

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to
    [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
    when the new wiki issues list page is created [recorded in
    [25]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [CONTINUES] [DONE]

      [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
      [25] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded
    in [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [CONTINUES]

      [26] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

    <RalphS> ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
    [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [CONTINUES]

      [27] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

    Ben: Not sure when Elias is back

    <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec
    [recorded in
    [28]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
    [CONTINUES]

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06

    <RalphS> ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of
    n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
    [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
    [CONTINUES]

      [29] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08

    <RalphS> Ben: SWD WG resolved that RDFa is not required to implement
    all of RDF/XML

    <RalphS> ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
    [recorded in
    [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

      [30] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07

    Ben: if there's no use case for it

    <RalphS> -- withdrawn

    <RalphS> ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all
    mime type, etc.. [recorded in
    [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

      [31] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

    Ben: Someone volunteered to help with generation of test cases

    <RalphS> -- continues

    <benadida> "someone" is Wing from IBM

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
    supported by RDFa [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [CONTINUES]

      [32] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week
    [recorded in
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
    [CONTINUES]

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload
    problem [recorded in
    [34]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [CONTINUES]

      [34] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for last
    call on June 1 [recorded in
    [35]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [CONTINUES]

      [35] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09

    <RalphS> ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and
    RDFa [recorded in
    [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
    [CONTINUES]

      [36] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02

    Ben: On the docs, I will update this week

FtF Slight return

    Ralph: Monday evening (this is point 2 from above) we had an
    informal get together. Guus did a demo of his prize-winning museum
    system
    ... Tim asked if the HTML pages contained RDFa, and Guus said "of
    course they do"

    <mhausenblas>

    Ralph: Ben went into a corner and tried it with his tools, and then
    stepped up and demoed cutting and pasting from the pages
    ... and got a round of applause!

    <benadida> RDFa clipboard: [37]http://labs.adida.net/rdfa-clipboard/

      [37] http://labs.adida.net/rdfa-clipboard/

Cambridge SemWeb get-together demo

    <benadida>
    [38]http://e-culture.multimedian.nl/demo/local_view?uri=http%3a%2f%2
    ft-d-b.org%3fhttp%3a%2f%2fe-culture.multimedian.nl%2fdemo%2fartchive
    %2ftansey%2ftansey_picasso.jpg

      [38]  
http://e-culture.multimedian.nl/demo/local_view?uri=http%3a%2f%2ft-d-b.org%3fhttp%3a%2f%2fe-culture.multimedian.nl%2fdemo%2fartchive%2ftansey%2ftansey_picasso.jpg

    <MarkB_> more applause!!

    <benadida>
    [39]http://e-culture.multimedian.nl/demo/local_view?uri=http%3a%2f%2
    ft-d-b.org%3fhttp%3a%2f%2fe-culture.multimedian.nl%2fdemo%2fartchive
    %2fgris%2fpicasso.jpg

      [39]  
http://e-culture.multimedian.nl/demo/local_view?uri=http%3a%2f%2ft-d-b.org%3fhttp%3a%2f%2fe-culture.multimedian.nl%2fdemo%2fartchive%2fgris%2fpicasso.jpg

    <RalphS> Ben: only tested in FireFox

    Steven: Doesn't yet work in Opera

    Ben: Maybe submit to Devtrack at WWW2007

    <RalphS> Ben: click 'copy', click the scissors item, the use the
    normal OS 'copy' item

    <RalphS> ... then go to the scissors on rdfa-clipboard, click there,
    and 'paste'

    <mhausenblas> I am overwhelmed

    Ben: I need to write this up
    ... and put it somewhere safe so that my machine doesn't get
    overwhelmed

    <RalphS> Ralph: it would be fine to put the bookmarklets in SWD WG
    space on www.w3.org

    Steven: There is an issue of an icon for RDFa, just while I remember
    it

Overloading @CLASS

    <MarkB_> more applause ;)

    <RalphS> Steven: word reached me that TimBL is unhappy about RDFa
    using @CLASS

    Ben: Yes, your warnings were right
    ... he added RDFa to a page with lots of classes

    <MarkB_> prescient ;)

    <benadida> <div class="notice">

    Ben: and tons of spurious triples were generated

    <benadida> ...

    <benadida> </div>

    <benadida> <div class="notice" about="[40]http://...#me">

      [40] http://../#me

    Ben: this says that a person is of type 'notice'
    ... based on that we talked about two possible fixes
    ... 1) not @class but @type
    ... which I don't like
    ... 2) Only consider classes that have a prefix
    ... which I like more

    <mhausenblas> what is about class=":Person" then ?

    Ben: there is also a similar ul/ol problem

    Ralph: Unfortunately we didn't make a copy of the whiteboard
    ... Tim was distinguishing between real DOM nodes and 'virtual' RDF
    nodes
    ... and trying to understand which crossed over between the two
    ... so there were two questions, one the many triples problem, and
    Ben tried to argue that the triples were really there
    ... but the resolution was that they may not be incorrect, but they
    are unexpected, and therefore noise
    ... The other question was in the context of lists (I hope Ben will
    write this up) that lists will only generate triples when there is
    an explicit subject

    Ben: uls/ols must have an explicit subject, not bnodes linking to
    bnodes
    ... this is a garbage collection problem

    Ralph: Tim added a little bit of RDFa to a page, and ran it through
    the bookmarklet, and was looking for what he expected, and it was
    there, but hard to find

    Mark: I'm wary about changing the syntax to cope with these things
    ... there is a difference between authoring and consuming the
    triples
    ... and having extra rules to prevent triples needs to be solved at
    the consuming level. I'm worried we will be blocking potential use
    cases
    ... If I use rel='stylesheet', that is a real triple, even if the
    author hadn't intended it
    ... we must distinguish between authoring and consuming
    ... and not block potentially useful information
    ... I don't like the concept of 'reducing noise'.

    Ben: The only syntax change proposed was related to @class

    <RalphS> Mark: we may want to add switches to select whether
    unprefixed class values generate triples

    <Steven_> Scribenick: Steven_

    <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to note that the only syntax change that
    came out of the breakout concerns @class

    Mark: The key thing is that some people use class as a presentation
    thing, and some as semantic

    <mhausenblas> May I comment, please ...

    Ralph: It is consistent to say that the triples using @class are
    really there, but many people don't mean them as such
    ... so do all semantics present in an HTML doc deserve to be output
    as triples?

    <MarkB_> But my point is that even talking of 'being output' is
    wrong. It's a 'pull' not a 'push' approach.

    Ralph: there's also the issue of a node in the DOM tree representing
    a person

    Mark: we need to resurrect that issue

    <MarkB_> In brief, there is no way to refer to a DOM node. :)

    Michael: I support Mark. The triples are really there, whether the
    author thought of them as such or not
    ... the triples are for machines, not humans

    Mark: So we are saying the opposite of microformats? :-) Put the
    machine first :-)

    Ralph: We want to give a uniform semantics to HTML attributes, and
    we think that styling semantics are not against regular semantics
    ... microformats does this after all.
    ... But Tim says that microformats does not have consistent
    semantics for class
    ... you have to interpret it in context
    ... so it is different there, and that is one of the problems with
    microformats.

    Mark: There are people who use class properly
    ... But great work guys in getting Tim's attention, and writing RDFa

Wrap up

    Ben: Michael, I wonder if you would coordinate the creation of test
    cases?

    Michael: Sure!

    Ben: I will champion the use case doc, and primer
    ... Steven would you be willing to help with the syntax doc?

    Steven: Sure

    Ben: Next week we will attack some urgent issues

    <scribe> ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test
    case production [recorded in
    [41]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]

    Ralph: Is the Primer ready for tomorrow?

    Ben: That's the goal

    <RalphS> next meeting: 5 Feb

    Ben: next meeting same place, same time

    [Adjourn]

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: Ben to put Michael and Wing in contact for test case
    production [recorded in
    [42]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]
    [NEW] ACTION: Mark to put M12N schema up somewhere, and tell us
    where [recorded in
    [43]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/29-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
    [NEW] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
    [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
    [NEW] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime
    type, etc.. [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

      [44] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07
      [45] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben start a list of RDF/XML features that are not
    supported by RDFa [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to get the docs in good shape for next week
    [recorded in
    [47]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
    [recorded in
    [48]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update issues list with the @CLASS overload
    problem [recorded in
    [49]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to update RDFa schedule on wiki to aim for
    last call on June 1 [recorded in
    [50]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to write down the relation between GRDDL and
    RDFa [recorded in
    [51]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
    [recorded in
    [52]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of
    n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
    [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec
    [recorded in
    [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Michael continue work on the FAQ template that
    Elias started [recorded in
    [55]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
    [PENDING] ACTION: Michael transfer issue data to SWD tracker
    [recorded in
    [56]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

      [46] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action01
      [47] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action04
      [48] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
      [49] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action08
      [50] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action09
      [51] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/23-swd-minutes.html#action02
      [52] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
      [53] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
      [54] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06
      [55] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
      [56] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

    [DONE] ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to
    [57]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
    when the new wiki issues list page is created [recorded in
    [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
    [DONE] ACTION: Ben to update uc2, image src, uc4, no innerHTML, add
    link to GetN3 bookmarklet [recorded in
    [59]http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]

      [57] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
      [58] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
      [59] http://www.w3.org/2007/01/08-htmltf-minutes.html#action15

    [End of minutes]
Received on Monday, 29 January 2007 15:38:32 GMT

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