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meeting record: 2006-10-16 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2006 12:01:05 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20061016115806.0932beb8@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org

The [1]record of today's RDF in XHTML telecon is ready for review.
A full text snapshot follows below.

  [1] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html

Topics
         1. Action Item Review
         2. New Bnode implementation
         3. Reification

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

[NEW] ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

[NEW] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion topics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

[PENDING] ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[DONE] ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available for TF telecons [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new bnode support proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben to draft message to the community describing the class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing uses [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

-Ralph

----

                            RDF-in-XHTML TF

16 Oct 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0034.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2006-10-09

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-irc
      [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0021.html

Attendees

   Present
          Ben Adida, Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton, Elias Torres, Mark
          Birbeck

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Action Item Review
         2. New Bnode implementation
         3. Reification
     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________

Action Item Review

   ACTION: [DONE] All to send Ben email giving times you are available
   for TF telecons [recorded in
   [10]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new
   bnode support proposal [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben move his live editor's draft to
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml recorded
   in [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

     [12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml
     [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

   ACTION: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben to draft message to the community describing the
   class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing
   uses [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

   ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type,
   etc.. [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01] IN
   PROGRESS]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   <Steven> [17]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml

     [17] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2006/xhtml2.xml

   Steven: a little more progress

   Ben: wasn't Mark going to produce some more tests for the striping
   proposal?

   ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

   ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining discussion
   topics [recorded in
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [20] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08

   ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [CONTINUES]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

New Bnode implementation

   Ben: implemented in latest [22]bookmarklets
   ... implements @rel= w/o @href=

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/rdfa-bookmarklet/

   Ben: current element with @rel becomes the subject for the contained
   statements
   ... there's an edge case if you put @about= and @rel on the same
   element w/o an @href=
   ... you currently end up with subject and object being the same node

   Steven: I haven't come across any counter-examples yet where this
   doesn't work

   Ben: we should decide soon whether to include this in the next
   document drafts

Reification

   Ben: [23]issues list was confused; I had written there that we were
   "thinking" of not including reification
   ... but we did not resolve this question

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues/

   Mark: my initial examples were the IPTC work where they wanted to be
   able to say _who_ wrote something
   ... more recently, the i18n case came up
   ... link @rel=x @href=y @title= requires putting the title in a
   child element
   ... the title property must be a property of the link, not of the
   document
   ... in RDF terms this seems to be a title of an RDF statement

   Elias: reification is a double-headed monster
   ... two ways to interpret reification: 1. as quoting, 2. as
   identification; "this is the statement"
   ... I think the intention was more the former than the latter
   ... there are long discussions on this question
   ... it's not clearly a standard that you can name a statement and
   then start talking about that statement itself

   Mark: I'd like to use the named graph approaches that are being
   discussed

   Elias: SPARQL uses named graphs though they're not yet accepted

   Mark: we want the name to apply to whatever the RDF community
   decides is meant
   ... we want RDFa to specify this at a higher level
   ... e.g. for IPTC we want the creator statement to say who is
   responsible for making the statement

   Elias: I can't justify making reification a requirement when its
   specification is very unclear

   <EliasT> ..
   [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2006Mar/0159.ht
   ml

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/semantic-web/2006Mar/0159.html

   Elias: there is not a clear definition so people are reluctant to
   use reification
   ... I'm not in favor of making this a requirement

   Ben: I've heard similar feedback from the community as Elias
   ... that reification is poorly specified

   Mark: I think we should leave this issue open and come back to it
   ... RDFa is different from RDF/XML in that we _do_ have an element
   that represents the triples
   ... we have an element that is the object that carries the statement
   ... RDF/XML does not have a node that carries the triples
   ... since, for example, we do have a LINK element maybe we can make
   statements about the LINK element

   Elias: yes, we have a better scenario to make use of this but it's
   still only a possibility
   ... I do not use reification because of its cloudy definition

   Mark: what if we call it something different?

   Elias: we want to talk about who made the statement; e.g. provenance
   ... we'd have the capability to add provenance to any statement on
   an HTML page?

   Ben: right

   Mark: I've often thought this could be harmonized; "who added these
   nodes to this document" and "who added this metadata to this
   document?"

   Elias: couldn't we give a subject to the LINK and add a predicate
   directly to that subject?
   ... if what we're pointing to is the element that contains the
   statement ...
   ... but an element can contain more than one statement

   Mark: but we still have a problem; what does it mean to add @title
   to a LINK? What is the subject of the title property?
   ... it's not a property of the document or of the target @href, so
   title must be a property of something else

   <benadida> Mark is looking at:
   [25]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006O
   ct/0030.html

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Oct/0030.html

   Ben: see <link rel="meta" title="ICRA" href="OurICRAPolicy.rdf" />

   Mark: consider a blockquote with a child <meta property='cite'>
   ... we're all happy that this is a property of the blockquote
   ... can also be specified equivalently as <blockquote cite='x'>
   ... if we say the @title= example works the same way, then the title
   property must be a property of the statement

   Elias: are we trying to name a conceptual statement made by the link
   element or the link element itself?

   Mark: @rel=bookmark is used by Opera and an @title= is used as a
   kind of label; the text to show to the user
   ... <meta property='title' ...> is then a fantastic technique

   Elias: what if the link has @rel=, @rev=, ... -- does the @title
   apply to all of the statements?

   <MarkB_> <> xh:meta <OurCrapPolicy.rdf> .

   <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:title "ICRA" .

   Mark: the problem is that these two statements aren't connected

   Ralph: it's possible that we coud assert that the document says <>
   xh:link _:link0

   Elias: yes, if you want provenance you have to add all this yourself
   ... it's part of RDF to be able to express any relationships you
   want

   Mark: we're saying that there are already existing HTML features and
   we want to specify what they mean [in RDF]

   Elias: but we can create specific subjects on the fly and attach the
   properties to these without having to use reification
   ... I'm wary of pursuing RDF reification
   ... maybe meta is special
   ... @rel, @ref, @href are special but properties like @title are
   properties of the link
   ... attributes on the element are _attributes_ of the element
   ... but we have another axis where both subject and object can be
   external to the document

   <MarkB_> <> xh:link _:link0

   Elias: the element itself is the concrete thing we have to which we
   can attach the title property

   <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:rel xh:meta .

   <MarkB_> _:link0 xh:title "ICRA" .

   <MarkB_> _:link0 xh : subject <> .

   <MarkB_> _:link0 xh : href "OurCrapPolicy.href" .

   Mark: the point of my example is that this really is reification
   ... so we've just reinvented reification

   <EliasT> ... [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

     [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-n-aryRelations/

   Elias: it's not bad to reinvent reification
   ... but the specific RDFS vocabulary [subject, predicate, object] is
   not well-defined
   ... n-aryRelations uses a technique
   ... RSS wants to say several things about 'content'; the content
   relation has several values
   ... so RSS uses intermediate bnodes

   ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

   <EliasT> .. [28]http://ioctl.org/rdf/usementionmyarse

     [28] http://ioctl.org/rdf/usementionmyarse

   Mark: the n-aryRelation document has a note toward the end about
   reification

   Ben: I'm willing to work on both primer and syntax documents this
   week

   <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to note Web Content Labels as another use
   case

   Ralph: Elias is quite right that this is a long and complicated
   discussion
   ... the [29]Content Labels Incubator Group has the same use case:
   making statements like "who made this statement"
   ... Elias's summary will be very useful
   ... interested in the POV from implementors and theorists.
   ... at some point, the practice needs to take precedence

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/wcl/

   Ralph: I think it's complicated from a theoretical point of view but
   the application developers know exactly what they want the apps to
   do and we ought to be able to specify that

   Ben: let's plan to talk about RDF containers next week

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben announce new URIs for editors' drafts to TF
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Elias summarize the reification discussion [recorded
   in [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
   [NEW] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
   [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/16-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben start separate mail threads on remaining
   discussion topics [recorded in
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all
   mime type, etc.. [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
     [34] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action07
     [35] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/03-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
     [36] http://www.w3.org/2006/09/19-htmltf-minutes.html#action01

   [DONE] ACTION: All to send Ben email giving times you are available
   for TF telecons [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben add striping support to bookmarklet to test new
   bnode support proposal [recorded in
   [38]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben move his live editor's draft to
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml recorded
   in [40]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to draft message to the community describing the
   class proposal and explaining why we think it doesn't break existing
   uses [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action01
     [38] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
     [39] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/RDFa/syntax/Overview.xml
     [40] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
     [41] http://www.w3.org/2006/10/09-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________


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