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[RDFa] meeting record: 2006-12-18 RDF-in-XHTML telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2006 14:05:59 -0500
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20061218135840.04245220@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org
Cc: public-swd-wg@w3.org

The record of today's RDF in XHTML telecon is available [1].
A full text snapshot follows below.

   [1] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes

Topics

   1. Use Cases
   2. XHTML 1.1 module status
   3. Issues

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ben add chem-bla-ics use case to a science use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues when the new wiki issues list page is created [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

[NEW] ACTION: Ben look at Semantic Media Wiki use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]

[NEW] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

[NEW] ACTION: Michael move the issues list to the wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

[NEW] ACTION: Michael review Mobile Device use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action16]

[PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

[PENDING] ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

[PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]

[PENDING] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]

[PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type, etc.. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]

[WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be problematic with reification [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]

[DONE] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

[DONE] ACTION: Elias to look into sharing Open Office with task force [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

[DONE] ACTION: Mark to report on schema progress [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]

[DONE] ACTION: Michael to research extended usages of RDFa in Wikis [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

-Ralph

----

                            RDF-in-XHTML TF

18 Dec 2006

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Dec/0034.html

   See also: [3]IRC log, previous [4]2006-12-11

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-irc
      [4] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes

Attendees

   Present
          Michael Hausenblas, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

Contents

     * [5]Topics
         1. [6]Use Cases
         2. [7]XHTML 1.1 module status
         3. [8]Issues
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     _____________________________________________________


   Ben: I've revived discussion of hGRDDL on the GRDDL WG list; see
   "[10]Re: Review of testlist1#rdfa"
   ... the idea was that given lots of deployed microformats, perhaps
   it would be good to use GRDDL to transform them to RDFa to preserve
   rendering characteristics rather than directly to RDF

     [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-grddl-wg/2006Dec/0042.html

   Michael: I like the idea

   Michael: the Wiki seems to be dropping some updates in the
   [11]RecentChanges report
   ... I've edited
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requiremen
   ts 5-6 times but only the most recent appears

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RecentChanges
     [12] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements

   <mhausenblas>
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requiremen
   ts?action=info

     [13] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements?action=info

   Michael: the final version does show all the changes
   ... but the [14]recent changes page doesn't show all the changes

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RecentChanges

   ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   Ben: I'm talking with Science Commons. Their use cases tend to be
   quite long so I'm working on distilling something down to the core

   ACTION: [DONE] Ben update the issues list [recorded in
   [16]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

     [16] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

   Ben: shall we move the issues list to the wiki?

   Michael: I'll volunteer to move it

   ACTION: Michael move the issues list to the wiki [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

   <mhausenblas>
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues

   ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
   when the new wiki issues list page is done [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
     [20] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   ACTION: [DONE] Mark to report on schema progress [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05

   Mark: I've talked with Shane and we're going to move forward using
   some templates we already have

   ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06

   Mark: the module is already complete. I've enlisted Shane because of
   his understanding of XHTML modularization and his ability to write
   specs quickly

   Ben: does your current module have the latest striping and class
   decisions incorporated?

   Mark: no, not yet
   ... but it won't take long to bring it into line

   <benadida> looking at -->
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#ActionSummary

   ACTION: [DONE] Elias to look into sharing Open Office with task
   force [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11

   ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup that could be
   problematic with reification [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
   [WITHDRAWN]

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05

   ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM [recorded
   in [26]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [CONTINUES]

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10

   ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [CONTINUES]

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04

   ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of n-ary
   relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [CONTINUES]

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08

   Mark: I have to reproduce these from memory

   ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07

   ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all mime type,
   etc.. [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
   [CONTINUES]

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09

Use Cases

   ACTION: Michael to research extended usages of RDFa in Wikis
   [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE]

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

   Michael: I added several
   ... I tried to separate system metadata from others

   -> [32]Semantic Wiki use cases

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements#head-16b401eee1ad765055a4b133806e0fe799ecaadb

   Michael: does 8.1 capture what you were thinking, Ben?

   Ben: begins to capture
   ... in a semantic wiki there are triples all over the place; every
   link has a relationship

   Michael: I could go into more detail but I really wanted to show
   that without any user action there is already metadata there and
   RDFa could be provided

   Ben: can point out that all the triples from the semantic wiki can
   be included in the HTML

   Michael: I'm not so deep into semantic wikis to know if they want to
   go into client-side RDFa
   ... they're currently constructing RDF on the server side from the
   raw page source

   Ben: I need to resync on this; I've talked with Stefano Mazocchi

   ACTION: Ben look at Semantic Media Wiki use case [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action15

   Michael: [34]PDF use case
   ... converting PDF to HTML can preserve the metadata using RDFa
   ... Mobile Device use case; I looked quickly at DELI and it seems
   feasible to create this on the fly

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/wiki/RDFa_Use_Cases_and_Requirements#head-fd77f6f46ed0abaa22c6f67728d9df884238e7bf

   Mark: doesn't seem quite the right way around; CC/PP is delivered by
   the client to the server

   Ralph: that is my understanding as well; the server does some
   processing based on the client describing its capabilities

   Mark: role attribute is used now a lot in the mobile community
   ... to describe, e.g. that a div is a navigation bar or a footer
   ... with CC/PP you know what the device can do so the server can
   optimize the placement of such things for the device

   Michael: Publishing use case
   ... to emphasize use in blogging community

   <MarkB_> On blogging:
   [35]http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_chem-bla-ics_archive
   .html

     [35] http://chem-bla-ics.blogspot.com/2006_12_01_chem-bla-ics_archive.html

   <MarkB_> This guy is talking about using RDFa for chemistry.

   Michael: might be nice to approach del.icio.us

   ACTION: Michael review Mobile Device use case [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action16]

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action16

   Mark: chem-bla-ics is an example of a focussed blog that is more
   than simply a personal page

   Ben: chemisty example might be better to go with Science Commons use
   case rather than just blogging

   ACTION: Ben add chem-bla-ics use case to a science use case
   [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]

     [37] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action17

   Mark: this also shows a need for namespaces

   Ben: copy-and-paste use case is Mark's

   Mark: yep, I'll work on it this week

   Ben: I've received suggestions that the use cases be more
   consumer-focussed and less publisher-focussed
   ... add more story lines, as the use cases are never just one-way
   ... next 2 Mondays are holidays. Are we able to meet later during
   the week of 1 January?

   Mark: I'll be working off and on, but perhaps we can communicate
   more by email

   Ben: next telecon will be 8 Jan then; we'll need to have a complete
   document by then to send to the WG for the 9th

   Ralph: I'd like to see more detail in story lines in the use case
   document. Most of the detail is currently buried in the markup. This
   works for us but not for the general reader.

   Ben: yes, I hope to flesh out the story lines following the GRDDL
   example

   Ralph: from the use cases, we should be able to distill out
   requirements
   ... summarized in a "list of requirements."

   <mhausenblas> [38]http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/

     [38] http://www.w3.org/TR/webont-req/

   Michael: where are our requirements? they should be called out
   specifically, as in the OWL UCR document

   Ralph: I agree but I'm pessimistic about the available time

   Michael: so we shouldn't claim that this document has requirements
   yet

XHTML 1.1 module status

   Ben: we have Mark's update
   ... is it likely to be ready by 8 Jan?

   <benadida> -->
   [39]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues

     [39] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues

   Mark: I hope so -- I'm keeping an eye out for Shane

Issues

   Ben: I want to particularly highlight issues 4&7 role & class)

   -> [40]Role Attribute

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues#role

   Mark: I'm happy with the proposal

   Michael: whatever we decide needs to go into the RDFa syntax
   document soon

   Ralph: I'm generally persuaded by Mark's arguments

   Ben: we should confirm Steven's agreement
   ... issue 12 - CURIEs in predicate attributes
   ... I'm of the opinion that these should be CURIE/QName only, and
   not try to add [] syntax

   Ralph: the further we get from current HTML practice the harder we
   make our lives

   Ben: sounds like we have consensus for just CURIE only

   Ralph: I need to raise red flags about presuming a CURIE solution,
   especially for XHTML 1.1

   Mark: we don't need to drop CURIEs just because of XHTML 1.1

   Ben: issue 18 nested meta and link
   ... proposed resolution is to look up the tree for a meta containing
   @about
   ... in Bob Ducharme's example in the use case, do we agree that the
   interpretation is as Bob suggests? Making statements about the same
   subject

   Michael: I have a problem with reification in general. I doubt it's
   wise to include it in the first version.

   Mark: this isn't reification
   ... we don't get reification until we put meta inside non-meta

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben add chem-bla-ics use case to a science use case
   [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action17]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben add a forwarding pointer to
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
   when the new wiki issues list page is created [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben look at Semantic Media Wiki use case [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action15]
   [NEW] ACTION: Mark produce RDFa XHTML 1.1 module and spec [recorded
   in [45]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06]
   [NEW] ACTION: Michael move the issues list to the wiki [recorded in
   [46]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Michael review Mobile Device use case [recorded in
   [47]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action16]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to look into Science Commons use case
   [recorded in
   [48]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Elias start an FAQ [recorded in
   [49]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Elias to send email to list with use case from IBM
   [recorded in
   [50]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark produce more examples of applicability of
   n-ary relations from IPTC documents [recorded in
   [51]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write examples/tests of striping support
   [recorded in
   [52]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: Steven to put together sample XHTML2 doc with all
   mime type, etc.. [recorded in
   [53]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09]
   [WITHDRAWN] ACTION: Elias to send by email examples of HTML markup
   that could be problematic with reification [recorded in
   [54]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben update the issues list [recorded in
   [55]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: Elias to look into sharing Open Office with task
   force [recorded in
   [56]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11]
   [DONE] ACTION: Mark to report on schema progress [recorded in
   [57]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05]
   [DONE] ACTION: Michael to research extended usages of RDFa in Wikis
   [recorded in
   [58]http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03]

     [41] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action17
     [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-current-issues
     [43] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
     [44] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action15
     [45] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action06
     [46] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action03
     [47] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/18-htmltf-minutes.html#action16
     [48] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
     [49] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action04
     [50] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action10
     [51] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action08
     [52] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action07
     [53] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action09
     [54] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action05
     [55] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action03
     [56] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/04-htmltf-minutes.html#action11
     [57] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action05
     [58] http://www.w3.org/2006/12/11-htmltf-minutes.html#action03

   [End of minutes]
     _____________________________________________________


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