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Re: Question from the RDF-in-XHTML task force on the HTML Role Attribute

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2005 14:29:25 +0200
Message-ID: <4354EAA5.8040904@w3.org>
To: Mark Birbeck <mark.birbeck@x-port.net>
Cc: 'Sandro Hawke' <sandro@w3.org>, semantic-web@w3.org, 'public-rdf-in-xhtml task force' <public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Hi Mark...

thanks for the detailed explanation. Personally, I am a bit afraid of the Perl
effect, when a term (or language construct) has zillion of implied and inferred
semantics just to make things more consise. You had perfectly good arguments to
keep the

<whatever rel="rdf:type" href="something"> .... </whatever>

separate and I would be in favour of keeping it that way. Ie, not having a
hidden meaning added to 'role'.

Whether somebody comes up with a handy abbreviation for this... well, that is
another matter. It is worth a discussion around a table with a couple of beers...

Just my two pence

Ivan

-------- Original Message --------
From: "Mark Birbeck" <mark.birbeck@x-port.net>
To: "'Sandro Hawke'" <sandro@w3.org>
CC: semantic-web@w3.org, "'public-rdf-in-xhtml task force'"
<public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org>
Subject: Re:Question from the RDF-in-XHTML task force on the HTML Role Attribute
Date: 18/10/2005 01:37

> Sandro,
>
> The XHTML role attribute was originally devised to help with accessibility
> [1]. The idea was that you could put this attribute onto any element and
> tell some processor what this element was doing. This would go for script
> elements as much as for divs and spans.
>
> So in real-world usage, you might put role="hint" onto a div element, and a
> server processor would know that when converting this particular HTML
> document for a blind user--perhaps to VoiceXML--it should do something
> clever with this 'hint'.
>
> That's all far enough, and as I'm sure you'll agree, there is nothing
> controversial here in saying, for example:
>
>   _:div0 xh:role wai:hint .
>
> (The WAI group is involved in defining a taxonomy that can be used as
> objects in such statements.)
>
> However, the tricky bit comes next; if some elements are playing the 'role'
> of a toolbar or menu on an XHTML page, is it legitimate to say that they
> really 'are' toolbars or menus. In other words, simply by having a role
> predicate, does our div also get an additional triple:
>
>   _:div0 rdf:type wai:hint .
>
> The way that this extra triple is obtained is of course up for discussion
> too--it could be that xh:role is owl:sameAs rdf:type, or there is a
> hierarchy, or whatever--but that's not the question we need to resolve
> first; initially we're keen to hear from the RDF community whether it would
> be fair to say:
>
>   if something plays the role of a toolbar, then it *is* a toolbar
>
>
> Now, just in case people think we should just flip a coin and move on to
> more interesting topics, I'll give you some of the arguments that make this
> problematic.
>
> The main argument *against* this is that we may now get other statements
> that are not helpful, by inference. Let's say that we have the following
> XForms mark-up:
>
>   <xf:input ref="surname">
>     <xf:label>Surname:</xf:label>
>     <xf:hint>Please enter your name</xf:hint>
>   </xf:input>
>
> And let's say that we have agreed that the XForms specification provides us
> with a ready-made taxonomy of controls (by that I mean that their behaviour
> is defined abstractly and in a device-independent way). We can therefore add
> roles to our XHTML 1.1 mark-up, as follows:
>
>   <label for="sn" role="xf:label">Surname:</label>
>   <input id="sn" name="surname" role="xf:input" />
>   <div role="xf:hint">Please enter your name</div>
>
> If a server was dealing with an ordinary HTML browser, it could pass this
> code straight through, perhaps adding a reference to an external JavaScript
> file on the way to help implement the hint. But with this definition a
> server could also build the XForms mark-up we had, or an VoiceXML page. So
> the role attribute has successfully helped to indicate to a server what each
> element is doing.
>
> But although the div is playing the role of an XForms hint, it is not
> actually a hint, and to infer that it was could be problematic. For a start,
> in an HTML browser, the div needs event handlers defined to help the div
> hide and show itself in response to mouse movements. The server therefore
> needs to know that this div is an 'aspiring' hint, but it is not 'actually'
> a hint.
>
>
> The argument *for* having some form of equivalence between xh:role and
> rdf:type is that it makes for a very handy shorthand. There are many
> situations when writing RDF/A where you want to say that a div is playing
> the role of a foaf:Person or a calendar entry, or whatever. At the moment
> this is long-winded, and has to be done something like this:
>
>   <div>
>     <link rel="rdf:type" href="[foaf:Person]" />
>     Ben Adida
>   </div>
>
> (This uses the new CURIE syntax--it's still under discussion, but for now
> think of it as a way of putting QName-like strings into places where URIs
> normally go.)
>
> As you can see, this could get a bit much in situations where the primary
> purpose of the mark-up is to carry a lot of metadata (as discovered by
> Steven Pemberton who originally proposed this).
>
> Anyway, sorry that was so long, but I'm keen to ensure that people know why
> we are discussing this, so that we can get a wide range of input on this.
>
> To summarise, the positions I can see on this issue so far, are:
>
> Either:
>
>    * if something plays the role of something then it
>      *is* an instance of that thing;
>
> Or:
>
>    * just because something has a purpose of X, doesn't mean it
>      that it is an example of X.
>
> I would add another line of discussion to this second position, which is
> that we could still obtain the 'Pemberton-shorthand' in some other way, such
> as adding another attribute, along the same lines as 'a' in N3.
>
> Of course there may be other views, but I hope we can get some comments on
> these.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
> [1] As far as I am aware the proposal originates from T. V. Raman--at least
> the first draft I ever saw was authored by him (but apologies if anyone else
> was also involved). I then worked with Raman on a subsequent draft that
> brought in RDF and QNames, the idea being to make use of XForms and other
> taxonomies, and also to help servers work out how to transpose, if
> necessary. Eventually the whole thing was brought into XHTML 2.
>
>
> Mark Birbeck
> CEO
> x-port.net Ltd.
>
> e: Mark.Birbeck@x-port.net
> t: +44 (0) 20 7689 9232
> w: http://www.formsPlayer.com/
> b: http://internet-apps.blogspot.com/
>
> Download our XForms processor from
> http://www.formsPlayer.com/
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf-request@w3.org
>>[mailto:public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of
>>Sandro Hawke
>>Sent: 17 October 2005 20:58
>>To: Ben Adida
>>Cc: semantic-web@w3.org; public-rdf-in-xhtml task force
>>Subject: Re: Question from the RDF-in-XHTML task force on the
>>HTML Role Attribute
>>
>>
>>
>>Ben Adida writes [to www-rdf-interest]:
>>
>>
>>>Here's a better example that's more related to one of our issues in
>>>serializing FOAF documents:
>>>
>>>===========
>>><div role="foaf:Person">
>>>Ben Adida
>>></div>
>>>===========
>>>
>>>which would yield a triple:
>>>
>>>===========
>>>_:div0 xhtml2:role foaf:Person .
>>>===========
>>
>>This is hard to understand without seeing the other triples
>>would be generated.  What is the proposed relationship
>>between _:div0 and the literal "Ben Adida"?
>>
>>       -- sandro
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>

--

Ivan Herman
W3C Communications Team, Head of Offices
C/o W3C Benelux Office at CWI, Kruislaan 413
1098SJ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
tel: +31-20-5924163; mobile: +31-641044153;
URL: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/

Received on Tuesday, 18 October 2005 12:29:27 GMT

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