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meeting record: 2005-10-11 RDF-in-XHTML TF

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:15:11 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20051014141158.02581880@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

(finally got my head above water from a busier than normal week, sorry
for the delay in completing these.)

The record of this week's RDF in XHTML Task Force telecon [1] is
ready for review.  A text snapshot of revision: 1.2 of 2005/10/14 18:08:56
follows below.

   [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-minutes

----

SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF

11 Oct 2005

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/0016.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton, Ben Adida, Lisa Seeman,
	  Jeremy Carroll, Mark Birbeck

   Regrets

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

   Previous
          [4]record of 2005-10-04 meeting

      [4] http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html

Contents

     * Topics
         1. Role attribute
         2. Planning for F2F
     * Summary of Action Items

     _____________________________________________________________

Role attribute

   ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML role
   attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
   [CONTINUES]

   -> [10]Re: The ROLE attribute [Lisa 2005-10-03]

     [10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Oct/att-0002/00-part

   Lisa: WAI PF is using Role to help with inaccessibility to avoid
   guidelines such as "don't use javascript"; e.g. tell people how to use
   javascript in an accessible manner. Role is a very basic concept from
   an RDF perspective; e.g. a Submit button is a kind of a button which
   is a kind of widget which is a kind of roleso a DIV or any other
   element, e.g. in SVG, can be given a Role and the accessibility module
   will know what is expected. We're also working on accessible
   properties such as State -- knowing what State an object currently has
   and setting this state. We're soon going to be addressing structural
   issues. There is some basic structure now; e.g. a spreadsheet is a
   kind of table which is a kind of grid -- to be able to adapt a page
   according to the structure of its role. The third use case will define
   different types of content; e.g. sitemap, to help people with learning
   disabilities; can adapt the page to a form that works for the person
   according to its content role

   Ben: is role something that helps describe to the browser the purpose
   of the UI element?

   Lisa: yes, purpose but also what is expected; e.g. if role is checkbox
   then I can expect the states are 'checked' and 'unchecked'

   -> [11]25. XHTML Role Access Module

     [11] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-role.html

   Ralph: what is WAI PF WG interpretation of the reference to the about
   attribute in [12]25.2?

     [12] http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-role.html#col_Role

   Lisa: not sure; WAI PF has been assuming that we can use Role for our
   purposes; this element has a role of a certain type; e.g. an element
   is an instance of a Class. If you have basic roles we hope it will be
   possible to extend those roles. W. Do people publish new role
   definitions? Do document authors override these?

   Ben: it appears that WAI PF Role is a subclass of dc:Description?

   Lisa: no, we're just requiring that Role have at least one
   dc:Description

   Ralph: I wondered at first why Role was an OWL:Class until I saw that
   you used OWL Restrictions

   Mark: I think we've agreed that role does create a triple. It's a
   separate question whether that triple has rdf:type as its predicate. I
   don't see that the answer to this second question affects whether WAI
   PF can get what it wants. Why does PF subclass everything from Role?
   why inherit everything from this relationship?

   Lisa: I first wanted to be sure that people were aware of the WAI PF
   work but yes, I think you're probably right that the decision [about
   rdf:type] won't affect us. We have overloaded the word 'role'; think
   of this as WAI:role -- we're making instances of Classes. Predicates
   will refer to a separate document of states. We're not thinking of
   this role as being an attribute but rather a set of values

   Mark: but something _plays_ a role whereas [we are thinking that] role
   is a predicate, so a toolbar plays a role, it is not an instance of a
   role

   Lisa: we're thinking of role in a different way; we don't use it as a
   predicate

   Mark: you could say that a property of a toolbar is that it plays a
   WAI Role but to say that it _is_ a WAI Role seems wrong. Ehat's the
   connection between WAI role and XHTML2 role? It doesn't feel correct
   to me that a tri-state checkbox is a kind of role

   Lisa: I think we're in agreement; we're using the word 'role' in 2
   ways. We're using 'role' as a base class whereas it's commonly used as
   a predicate

   Mark: given a tweak in the words, then, I think the XHTML2 use of role
   is exactly consistent with what WAI wants

   Jeremy: I think the relationship between xhtml2:role and rdf:type is a
   red herring. Resources have a role (which might be better pronounced
   as "hasRole"). We can think of these as classes of resources. this
   might be rdf:type or not. subject is an xml element, predicate is
   hasRole, the object feels like a class to me. I'm indifferent to
   whether hasRole is a subProperty of rdf:type; this decision involves
   some idea of the information modelling so it's appropriate to listen
   to Lisa explain WAI PF's modelling but the definition of hasRole is
   independent of RDF/A. It's a real decision but not one that we need to
   make for RDF/A

   Ralph: I'm with Jeremy on this. It is in our scope to determine the
   meaning of xhtml2:role. A question for HTML WG and this Task Force is
   whether the way the 25 August WAI PF document uses xhtml2:role is
   consistent with our expected semantics

   Ben: we can punt the question of whether xhtml2:role is a subProperty
   of rdf:type but we still need to decide the meaning of xtml2:role

   Jeremy: listening to Steven, I hear him proposing that xhtml2:role is
   subProperty of rdf:type. I'm happy to defer to [HTML WG] on that
   question. I would only object if xhtml2:role was considered to be an
   alternate spelling of rdf:type. A semantic relation between the two
   should be reflected in the schema

   Mark: I think WAI PF has only started to realize all the issues. It
   may be an issue if we infer rdf:type from xhtml2:role as this would
   cause WAI Roles to get many properties that they did not intend. I
   worry that we'd be inferring all sorts of wrong things if we say "this
   DIV _is_ a toolbar" rather than "this DIV plays the role of a toolbar"

   Jeremy: regarding the document as an XHTML 2 thing, the id refers to a
   fragment of the document. In the RDF graph we're thinking in a more
   abstract way. It seems plausible to me that one could say that section
   of the document is a toolbar. How much does working with the fragment
   viewed from an RDF perspective allow us a different view than looked
   at from an HTML perspective?

   Mark: my recent example making a foaf:Document be an instance of a
   foaf:Person, to which DanBri objected, made me concerned about this
   modelling of role

   Jeremy: these kinds of things are uncovered whenever you drill down
   into an information model. If we decide that there is no relationship
   between xtml2:role and rdf:type but let WAI define one if it needs it,
   there may be harmful interoperability problems if other groups also
   want to define such a relationship

   ACTION: Mark and Ben to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
   [CONTINUES]

   ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   [CONTINUES]

   Ben: these two actions merge

Planning for F2F

   Ralph Guus would like us to have a document published ahead of time to
   give the WG. In a perfect world, this document would be a new
   specification of RDF/A

   Jeremy: we want WG input on some of the isues we've decided, e.g. CURI

   Ralph: I disagree that we've decided CURI. I have raised the CURI idea
   to my colleagues within the staff and there's been some significant
   amount of pushback against it

   Jeremy: feedback in HP has not been negative

   ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct [recorded in
   http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   [CONTINUES]

   ACTION: Ben put notes in the Web from Boston discussion with Mark
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-minutes.html#action05]

   ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the issues list
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04]
   [CONTINUES]

   Ralph continues, with some progress

   Ralph: do we expect to have a new document specifying RDF/A before the
   f2f?

   Ben: yes, I think that is important

   Jeremy: I have quite a few deadlines at the beginning of November, so
   I may not be able to have the revised XSLT until after the f2f but I
   will review a document and give some idea of implementability before
   then

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben put notes in the Web from Boston discussion with
   Mark
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/11-swbp-minutes.html#action05]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark and Ben to check edge cases of inheritance in
   RDF/A
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ralph and Ben to augment the issues list
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-swbp-irc#T14-30-04]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben summarize the question of semantics of the HTML
   role attribute and solicit feedback from RDF experts
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action01]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

   [PENDING] ACTION: Mark write CURI specification by 10 Oct
   [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/10/04-swbp-minutes.html#action02]

   [End of minutes]

   Change Log:
$Log: 11-swbp-minutes.html,v $
Revision 1.2  2005/10/14 18:08:56  swick
Cleanup for publication

     _____________________________________________________________


    $Revision: 1.2 $ of $Date: 2005/10/14 18:08:56 $
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