W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org > July 2005

meeting record: 2005-07-26 XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:37:54 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050726153514.029c0148@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The minutes of today's RDF-in-XHTML telecon are now available in [1].

   [1] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes

A text snapshot of revision 1.2 Date: 2005/07/26 19:34:24 follows:

----


                             SWBPD RDF-in-XHTML TF

26 Jul 2005

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Steven Pemberton, Ralph Swick, Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Jeremy
          Carroll

   Regrets
   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

   Previous
          [3]2005-07-19

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Action Review
         2. [6]RDF/A Examples
         3. [7]Next Meeting
     * [8]Summary of Action Items

     _____________________________________________________________

Action Review

   [9]ActionSummary

      [9] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#ActionSummary

   ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames,
   reification, and custom attributes and elements [CONTINUES]

   Ben: I expect to create a Web page

   Mark: could use the Wiki for issue tracking

   Ralph: or [10]w3c wiki

     [10] http://esw.w3.org/topic/FrontPage

   ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A
   [CONTINUES]

   Ben: doing a Creative Commons example

   Steven: how about an RSS example?

   ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / w.r.t. RDF Schema [DONE]
   [recorded in
   [11]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action03]

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action03

   -> [12]Re: the / vs # issue [19]

     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0018.html
     [19] http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

   ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper [DONE]

   Jeremy: it was a [13]presentation, not a paper.

     [13] http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/public/carroll-rdf-html.pdf

   see also: [14]post-meeting comments]

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jul/0032.html

   Ralph: I believe this was the presentation that other WG members
   thought could be the basis for a document

   ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [DONE]

   -> [15]RDF/A examples wiki

     [15] http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

   ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [CONTINUES]

   ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun
   /0010.html

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html

   Mark: I think the Joe Lambda example will highlight some of the bnode
   issues
   ... other examples I've been able to restructure so they don't really
   need named bnodes

   ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the
   GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

     [17] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03

   ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD
   of Note [recorded in
   [18]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   [CONTINUES]

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02

RDF/A Examples

   <benadida> [19]http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

     [19] http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfA

   Mark: the examples change almost by the hour
   ... initially I used a verbose XHTML2 style
   ... the rules now listed are the ones that are feeling firm to me
   ... we may have to treat meta and link as completely special; this is
   different from previous specifications
   ... previously meta was something like span
   ... now it seems only meta should attach properties to the parent
   ... my agenda is to be able to carry metadata but also use the data
   in-line
   ... e.g. a browser that pops-up metadata when you mouse-over a link
   ... in the ordinary HTML sense, meta was a way to attach metadata to a
   document. In this new framework meta is a way to attach metadata to
   any node
   ... section id='person' highlights the inheritance questions

   <Steven>
   [20]http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleFoaF

     [20] http://www.xforms-wiki.com/bin/view/Main/LanguageRdfAExampleFoaF

   Mark: in some cases <h1 property='x'> should apply to the h1 but in
   other cases the property should be applied to the parent
   ... at the moment I don't see an easy way to specify which one is
   intended

   <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to ask about whether this loses design goal of
   rdf/a being reusable and to ask about #person as RDF or HTML mimetype
   and to say how the first rdf/a draft addressed

   Jeremy: in the October RDF/A draft this issue of deciding the subject
   was addressed
   ... [the October words were] not unintuitive from an RDF/XML
   perspective
   ... a carefully selected subset of the October rules could make sense
   ... the subject rule by itself isn't too much

   Mark: feel free to add comments to the wiki

   Jeremy: the example seems to want to read #person to be an RDF mime
   type
   ... rather than as a fragid of an HTML document
   ... I'm comfortable with some ambiguity here
   ... there's a section in RDF Concepts that discusses frag ids and RDF

   Mark: I have generally thought they were two different worlds
   ... one could say that only when you view this document with "RDF
   glasses" do you see the RDF nodes

   ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10

   Ben: in the bottom example, you want the rdf:type property to apply to
   <section id="person">, right?
   ... even though there is no about attribute

   Mark: yes

   Ben: so the meta applies to the named node rather than to the
   document, even though there is no about attribute

   Mark: yes, the meta applies to the section because the section has an
   id
   ... I would prefer that meta always applies to the parent
   ... in this example I'm only going halfway; meta applies to section
   because of the id

   <Zakim> Steven, you wanted to ask about @xhtml2:role (after this
   discussion is over)

   Steven: the danger of the id solution is that id plays so many roles
   that you could accidentally insert an id (to be a link target) and
   suddenly change your RDF
   ... in the rdf:type example, I would have written <section
   role="foaf:Person">
   ... I see Mark doesn't use role much, whereas I use it a lot
   ... why this difference in approach?
   ... maybe role is being though of differently by each of us and we
   should write down what role means

   Mark: I think this would be a fantastic shorthand but we haven't
   defined it
   ... the types for roles could be defined in the RDF schema (e.g. using
   OWL)
   ... this sort of abbreviation would be nice for the HTML community

   Jeremy: with RDF Schema it is very easy to say xhtml:role and rdf:type
   have the same property extension; i.e. are effectively equivalent
   ... this is not allowed in OWL-lite or OWL-DL
   ... in OWL-full you can say that role=Person is equivalent to
   foaf:Person without making them synonyms

   Mark: I was thinking that, for example, anything with role=x would
   also have rdf:type=x

   Jeremy: yes, you can say this in OWL-Full
   ... but probably the RDF Schema version of this is good enough

   Mark: this would be very nice for super browsers; e.g. role=toolbar
   pulls in a lot of properties of toolbars

   Jeremy: HP would likely be pleased to say that role is a subProperty
   of type

   <jjc> Proposed triple: xhtml:role rdfs:subPropertyOf rdf:type .

   Mark: might I put role=Person on the root element, as I'm saying the
   whole thing is the Person
   ... regarding Steven's id question, I agree with the concern and
   that's why I'm leaning toward making link and meta always apply to the
   parent regardless of presence of id attribute
   ... the presence of id='person' simply allows you to refer to that
   anonymous node
   ... the only role of id would be to name things; it doesn't change the
   inheritance rules
   ... but this affects my h1 example

   Ben: I will add a Creative Commons example to the Wiki

   Steven: I am working on the W3C Talks example, then will look at RSS
   example

   Mark: note the title property="dc:title" -- it may be useful to think
   of some default settings
   ... e.g. the XHTML2 schema could give this property as a default
   attribute for title

   Ralph: this would require GRDDL to be more Schema-aware
   ... perhaps that's a good thing

Next Meeting

   next meeting: 2 August

   [adjourned]

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: jjc to review rdf concepts and fragments [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10]
   ACTION: Ben create a way to track progress on the 3 issues of qnames,
   reification, and custom attributes and elements [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
   ACTION: Ben send mail to www-html-editors to assign an issue for the
   GRDDL namespace document behind the profile [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
   ACTION: Ben to notify working group via a status report of upcoming WD
   of Note [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   ACTION: Ben to put together the "ACID" test for XHTML2 RDF/A [recorded
   in [26]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   ACTION: Mark to check edge cases of inheritance in RDF/A [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06]
   ACTION: take a serious look at Mark's bnode proposal summary
   [28]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun
   /0010.html [recorded in
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
   [DONE] ACTION: danbri record an issue re # vs / w.r.t. RDF Schema
   [recorded in
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: jjc to circulate www conf paper [recorded in
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
   [DONE] ACTION: Mark to create an rdf/a wiki [recorded in
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
   [End of minutes]

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action10
     [23] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action01
     [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action03
     [25] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/19-swbp-minutes.html#action02
     [26] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action02
     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action06
     [28] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Jun/0010.html
     [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action07
     [30] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action03
     [31] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action04
     [32] http://www.w3.org/2005/07/26-swbp-minutes.html#action05

   $Log: 26-swbp-minutes.html,v $

   Revision 1.2 2005/07/26 19:34:24 swick

   Cleanup for first publication

     _____________________________________________________________

   $Revision: 1.2 $ $Date: 2005/07/26 19:34:24 $
Received on Tuesday, 26 July 2005 19:38:23 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Tuesday, 8 January 2008 14:15:00 GMT