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meeting record: 2005-04-12 RDF-in-XHTML TF telecon

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:09:42 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20050412120520.02a69480@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

The minutes of today's telecon are
http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes

A text snapshot of revision 1.2 $Date: 2005/04/12 16:04:16 $ follows.
----
                                RDF-in-XHTML TF

12 Apr 2005

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0018.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-irc

Attendees

   Present
          Ben Adida, Mark Birbeck, Ralph Swick, Steven Pemberton

   Regrets
          Jeremy

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          Ralph

   Previous Meeting
          [4]05 April

      [4] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes

   Next Meeting
          26 April

Contents

     * [5]Topics
         1. [6]Action Review
         2. [7]XHTML2 - RDF/A
         3. [8]GRDDL
     * [9]Summary of Action Items

     _________________________________________________________________

    -> [10]previous meeting 2005-04-05

     [10] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes

Action Review

   -> [11]Last Meeting's action summary

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/05-swbp-minutes#ActionSummary

   ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
   [CONTINUES]

   Ben: I spoke with DanBri and he said he hoped to do this action before
   the end of the month

   ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
   in their respective communities [CONTINUES]

   Ben: more email sent to Gavin

   Ralph: Tom reported at last week's WG telecon that he had sent
   feedback
   ... but couldn't find it in email
   ... Tom will regenerate it if necessary

   Ben: neither could I; Tom though he'd sent feedback but we're not able
   to find it

   ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list. [DONE]

   ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in
   XHTML 2 [CONTINUES]

   Ben: there is not yet a public URI for the XHTML2 draft, correct?

   Steven: correct, the current document is Member-only

   <Steven> [12]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/

     [12] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Group/2005/WD-xhtml2-20050411/

   Ralph: it's only a problem if the HTML WG doesn't want those
   restricted links named in our public forum

   Steven: posting those URIs is not a problem for the HTML WG

   ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
   pre-XHTML2 [DONE]

   ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
   RDF-in-HTML problem [DONE]

   <benadida>
   [13]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-archive/2005Apr/0032

   <benadida>
   [14]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr
   /0004.html

     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2005Apr/0004.html

   Ben: action done, as question was asked

   ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback

   ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
   Steven and Mark (use cases) [CONTINUES]

   Ben: I have a [15]work-in-progress

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/2005-04-11-use-cases.html

   Ben: I hope to add English descriptions of the goal of the community
   for each case
   ... I will provide RDF/XML examples
   ... hoping that Steven and Mark will provide the XHTML2 serialization

   Mark: yep

XHTML2 - RDF/A

   Mark: Steven and I have a number of sample documents we have been
   using
   ... we'd like someone else's documents to check as well

   <Steven> (e.g. RSS in XHTML)

   Ben: it would be nice to have some tests that combine RSS, FOAF, and
   Dublin Core

   Steven: Last Call WD now hinges on getting the schema up-to-date
   ... specifically, we discovered our schema for XForms was out of date

   Ben: will the RDF Schema hold you up?

   Steven: no, that can be done as a Note

   Mark: I started to reply to some of last week's bnode comments

   <MarkB_> [16]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168

     [16] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168

   <Steven> (Note that the rdf/a draft is now in W3C space)

   Mark: see [17]Creative Commons example in rdf-a.html
   ... why would this example (section 6.1) mean anything but an
   anonymous node?
   ... the only thing you can't do is refer to this node from outside the
   document
   ... from the HTML side, you'd argue that id is creating anonymous
   nodes
   ... from the RDF side, what we want is a way to express anonymity
   ... we already have about
   ... and html:id
   ... so why do we need another mechanism?
   ... if you are really creating an external identifier use about,
   otherwise use id
   ... this makes most things be 'anonymous' nodes unless you use about
   ... I've tried this for a few examples and it seems to work

     [17] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html#div248219168

   Ben: is there no longer subject inheritance; does about no longer
   inherit from parent?

   Mark: Steven and I have gone back and forth about this, not yet
   reflected in drafts
   ... we've concluded that anything that has only a property and object
   should always be about the document itself
   ... so you no longer get nodes being bnodes by default as in the
   previous draft
   ... see example in 5.2
   ... the link inside the blockquote would now have the document as
   subject, not the blockquote
   ... Jeremy had commented that the inheritance rules were complicated

   Steven: another advantage is that this is more natural for the HTML
   community

   Ralph: I suspect this is a much cleaner design
   ... it likely solves Jeremy's observation that the October draft
   appeared to create many more triples than the prose implied

   Ben: I think most document authors will not be explicitly interested
   in anonymous nodes, so this design feels better

   Steven: this design is reflected in the current XHTML2 editor's draft
   ... the rdf-a document is not in sync

   Mark: if you wanted to talk about the person 'Ben' in example 6.1, you
   could add <p about='[18]http://ben.adida.net'>

     [18] http://ben.adida.net'%3E/

   <Steven> Oh, I see; OK I agree

   Mark: anonymous nodes don't have any significance to HTML authors

   Steven: I posted an example to the HTML WG that I thought explained
   this
   ... e.g. referring to a table of contents document that does not yet
   exist

   Ralph: I can't imagine a case where it would be bad for nodes to have
   identifiers

   Mark: I'm not suggesting that all nodes should have identifiers

   Steven: this might undermine the URL mechanism

   Mark: the difference is that in HTML the fragment identifier refers to
   a part of a document but in RDF the interpretation would be a node

   ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1) any node
   with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a fragment
   refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)

   Ralph: Ralph: What's the schedule for this new XHTML document in W3
   space?

   Mark: Mark: it requires some rewriting

   Ralph: is [19]http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html a copy of the
   [20]October RDF-A document?

     [19] http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/rdf-a.html
     [20] http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html

   Mark: yes

   Ralph: can the RDF-A module be made part of XHTML2 in such a way that
   it can be normatively referenced within XHTML2 spec and still reusable
   by other non-HTML vocabularies?

   Mark: good idea; I will think about it

   Ralph: Another possible path is to combine RDF/A and metainformation
   module prose
   ... an HTML author needs this to make sense to them
   ... pieces of RDF/A formalism interspersed can be included

   Mark: Mark: earlier drafts did just that (beginner's guide to triples)
   ... HTML authors have been using LINK and META for years. This new
   approach is easy to understand.

   Ralph: Ralph: we're so close; some formalisms are important and we can
   educate people

GRDDL

   Ben: we'll continue to look for feedback from TomB and Gavin
   ... Creative Commons really wants people to use the RDF/A mechanism in
   HTML4 and XHTML1
   ... but we don't want this to delay the XHTML2 work at all

   Mark: the only missing feature for the Creative Commons example is
   qnames
   ... the about attribute is new and 'name' became 'property' within
   meta but the CC examples don't use these

   Ben: if XHTML1 with the RDF/A Creative Commons example can be
   validated, that's what we'd like
   ... Creative Commons would like an HTML4 solution that looks a lot
   like the XHTML2 solution

   Ralph: the whole of GRDDL may not necessary for a number of use cases
   ... if we can't find anyone who needs the whole thing

   Ralph: if we cannot find a community who wants the full generalization
   of GRDDL perhaps the specific subset of the RDF-A/XHTML2 solution that
   can be made to work in HTML4 is an approach more acceptable to
   implementors?

   Ben: even if GRDDL is determined not to be essential to RDF-in-XHTML,
   I believe it could be useful to other Semantic Web applications and
   the SWBPD WG may still wish to consider it

   next meeting 26 April

Summary of Action Items

   ACTION: Ben to Provide RDF/XML examples and english description to
   Steven and Mark (use cases)
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to talk to Jeremy about HP feedback
   [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action07]
   ACTION: DanBri RDF schema for new XHTML2 namespace elements
   [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action01]
   [NEW] ACTION: MarkB to email TF with his bnode proposal -- that (1)
   any node with @id is an anonymous node; (2) that an @href with a
   fragment refers to these nodes (like @rdf:nodeID)
   [recorded in
   [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action09]
   ACTION: Steven to send email about latest draft of RDF/A included in
   XHTML 2
   [recorded in
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action04]
   ACTION: Tom Baker and Gavin to get feedback about use of RDF in XHTML
   in their respective communities
   [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action02]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to ask Tom, Gavin and CC about opinion on GRDDL and
   pre-XHTML2
   [recorded in
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action05]
   [DONE] ACTION: Ben to move bnode discussion to email list.
   [recorded in
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action03]
   [DONE] ACTION: Jeremy to ask HP about need for pre-XHTML 2 solution to
   RDF-in-HTML problem
   [recorded in
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action06]

   [End of minutes]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action07
     [22] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action01
     [23] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action09
     [24] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action04
     [25] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action02
     [26] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action05
     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action03
     [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/04/12-swbp-minutes.html#action06

     _________________________________________________________________


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