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meeting record: 2004-10-22 RDF-in-HTML TF

From: Ralph R. Swick <swick@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 14:08:20 -0400
Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.2.20041025140337.03526008@127.0.0.1>
To: public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf@w3.org

[The irc log misses the first 13 minutes of the telecon.  I was also late
joining the meeting. Jeremy Carroll's irc log also doesn't go back any
further.  If there exist notes from eariler in the telecon than [2], please
forward them to the list.  -Ralph]


   [1] SWBPD

                              SWBPD HTML Task Force
                                  22 Oct 2004

   See also: [2]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          Ben Adida, David Wood, Dom Hazael-Massieux, Dan Connolly,
          Jeremy Carroll, Steven Pemberton, Ralph Swick

   Regrets
          Mark Birbeck

   Chair
          Ben

   Scribe
          DanC, Jeremy, Ralph

Contents

     * Topics

     * Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________


   <benadida> JJC going over
   [5]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/
   0013.html

   Dan: so what do we do about literals?
   whether it's required... I'm looking over the use cases in
   [6]http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML

   <Steven> Why doesn't <meta about="[7]http://example.org/doc"
   REL="dc:creator">Jeremy Carroll</META> WORK FOR YOU?

   <jjc> Problem is that "Jeremy Carroll" becomes "Jeremy
   Carroll"^^rdf:XMLLiteral (without lang)
   or "<span xml:lang="en">Jeremy Carroll</span>"^^rdf:XMLLiteral

   ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to
   literals for CC

   <jjc> Not clear if tools will see that this is the same name as
   "Jeremy Carroll" plain literal.

   <jjc> discussion of tools: CWM, DC tools, FOAF

   <jjc> suggestion that Dan Bri would be best to follow up on foaf

   ACTION: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with
   respect to FOAF and literals

   DanC: based on what I know, I'd say, conservatively, that the ability
   to express plain literals is a requirement.

   StevenP: HTML WG meets ftf 1st week of Nov (8-9 Nov) so input before
   then is best.

   Steven: :Last Call is waiting on this

   ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue

   <jjc> reification e-mail; as
   [9]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html
   shows, RDF/A is OK w.r.t. reification; point is that there isn't a problem.

   Steven introduces RDF/A
   [10]http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html

   Steven: moved from resource to href
   motivated by CC, also makes it look more like html 4

   DanC: the CC use case doesn't look right; example 6.1 says
   "the statements are not about the document",
   whereas CC does want to say something about the document

   <jjc> Marks question about="" or about = "#" ?

   DanC: this document is ""

   <jjc> DanC ""

   <jjc> Jeremy ""

   <Ralph> Steven: about='' is ok

   DanC: I think about="" will get ignored by the deployed stuff.

   Steven: meta stuff was always implicitly about this doc, now
   being made explicit

   Ralph: about='' conforms to an RDF/XML usage pattern too, so
   that's good

   Steven: default about="" on head

   <jjc> This allows current authors to continue their practice

   DanC: (I don't see that in the psuedocode under 7 Rules)

   jjc: the plain literals stuff looks ok

   <jjc> content= attribute

   DanC: these means duplicating metadata which is visible
   eg. <... content="Ralph">Ralph</ ...

   JJC: tools perhaps don't support XMLLiteral in RDF well, but maybe
   it's OK to push in that direction by way of XHTML 2

   <dom> what about adding another attribute that distinguishes both
   cases?

   DanC: I think another attribute was discussed earlier. Seems like
   a good idea, to me.

   <dom> maybe not going as far as allowing any datatypes, but at least
   separating XMLLiteral from plain literal

   <dom> a la "rdf:datatype"

   DanC: <span content="456">456</span>
   problem also for date strings etc ...

   <jjc> i.e. computer code rather than Natural Language content

   DanC: (is there an XSLT thingy to grok RDF/A available?)

   Steven: there's meant to be something XLST but it's not quite
   ready ...

   <dom> the XSLT can hardcode it

   DanC: right

   DanC: any default attr e.g. about="" should eb explciit in XSLT
   as well as in DTD

   <dom> ie, if not(test(@about)) assume(about="")

   DanC: has Ben thought about the impact of the XHTML 2.0
   namespace and media type on CC deployment?

   DanC: and the media type

   <dom> note that XHTML 2.0 is the way forward, GRDDL can be used for
   the way backward

   ACTION: Ben assess impact of namespace change on CC and the
   media type

   ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1

   Moving on to feedback ...

   Ben: if CC can provide the chunk for an author to insert that
   is acceptable to HTML4 and gives the right semantics when users adopt
   XHTML2, that's good

   <dom> [I note that the new profile-based GRDDL may be easier to deploy
   than the profile+link one]

   DanC: but about='' isn't HTML4

   Steven: XHTML will reference RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax

   DanC: note jjc's point about bnodes conflicts
   with " RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] provides sufficient flexibility to
   represent all of the abstract concepts in RDF

   RESOLVED: that the style of section 5 RDF Concepts is a useful design
   for expressing RDF graphs in XHTML 2, and references [RDF-CONCEPTS]
   normatively in a satisfactory way
   [11]http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div150483264

   DanC: umm... action somebody to tell the HTML WG? ah... stevenP is here;
   please let them know.

   jjc: question about xml:lang
   ... grddl transform must be specifed to add <span> elements
   ... see example 5.1.2.1

   DanC: where is the resulting graph defined?

   Next Meeting: 1500-1600 UTC 29 Oct (regrets from Dom)

   meeting adjourned, DanC, BenA, and RalphS continue to chat

   Wiki on embedding:
   [13]http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML

   SHOE (UMD) project also embedded metadata in HTML:
   [14]http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE/

   ACTION DanC: ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put this in
   my web page?" community

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Ben assess impact of namespace and media type change
   ... on CC
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals
   ... for CC
   [NEW] ACTION: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with
   ... respect to FOAF and literals
   [NEW] ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue
   [NEW] ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1
   [NEW] ACTION DanC: ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put
   ... this in my web page?" community

     _________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [15]scribe.perl 1.90 ([16]CVS log)
    $Date: 2004/08/10 15:51:28 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/
   2. http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc
   5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0013.html
   6. http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
   7. http://example.org/doc
   9. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html
  10. http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html
  11. http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div150483264
  12. http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div448277832
  13. http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
  14. http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE/
  15. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
  16. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/scribe.perl
Received on Monday, 25 October 2004 18:11:21 GMT

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