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Re: [ENT] Review comments on the SPARQL 1.1. Entailment regime document

From: Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@deri.org>
Date: Tue, 18 May 2010 17:50:39 +0100
Cc: "Birte Glimm" <birte.glimm@comlab.ox.ac.uk>, "Sandro Hawke" <sandro@w3.org>, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org>, "W3C SPARQL WG" <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <0B691C08-E6F5-474C-8BE2-A645458181D1@deri.org>
To: "Chimezie Ogbuji" <ogbujic@ccf.org>
As for what I see in Section 7 it still talks a lot about strongly safe rulesets only. 
Needs to be updated wrt. the more relaxed finiteness criterion we have now. (as mentioned in today's call)

best,
Axel
On 18 May 2010, at 14:23, Chimezie Ogbuji wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something from this particular thread, but section 7.3
> Finite Answer Set Conditions (Informative) already that effect.
> 
> -- Chime
> 
> 
> On 5/18/10 7:20 AM, "Birte Glimm" <birte.glimm@comlab.ox.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> > That was my understanding too, i.e., we can also just have an
> > informative section (as RIF) that explains that by using only strongly
> > safe core rules, you get a nice guarantee for finiteness.
> > Birte
> >
> > On 18 May 2010 09:44, Axel Polleres <axel.polleres@deri.org> wrote:
> >>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
> >>>>
> >>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
> >>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
> >>>
> >>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
> >>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
> >>> there are issues I'm missing.
> >>
> >> If we don't require finiteness any longer, am not sure whether we need an own
> >> URI for strongly safe.
> >> We may just want to mention in the text that for strongly safe rulesets
> >> consequences will
> >> always be finite without the need for a separate entailment regime.
> >>
> >> Axel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 18 May 2010, at 04:54, Sandro Hawke wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>> Hey Chime,
> >>>>
> >>>> Quick reply. Unfortunately, I cannot be on the call; I am on my way to =
> >>>> Sweden...
> >>>>
> >>>> On May 17, 2010, at 21:20 , Chimezie Ogbuji wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for the review Ivan, see responses below for those comments =
> >>>> referring
> >>>>> to my sections.
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> On 5/12/10 11:04 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> -----------
> >>>>>> Section 7
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> At the moment, the http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/ vocabulary does =
> >>>> _not_
> >>>>>> include the
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF-RDF-Strongly-Safe-Core
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> but only
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RIF
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> It is easy for me to add this additional URI, but I have to be sure =
> >>>> this is
> >>>>>> o.k. with the RIF group, and whether it is the correct name. And, if =
> >>>> I add
> >>>>>> this, shouldn't I add others? Which ones? Axel, Sandro, can you help =
> >>>> on that?
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> Ok, I'll leave that one as is until there is further input
> >>>>
> >>>> I leave that to Axel and Sandro
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, I haven't had the time to follow this for a while.  How
> >>> urgent is this?  Things for me relax a little in two weeks, I think.
> >>>
> >>> Offhand, I'm unpleasantly surprised that anyone would want to name a
> >>> subset of Core.  Subsetting Core is bad for interoperability.  But maybe
> >>> there are issues I'm missing.
> >>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>> -----------
> >>>>>> Section 7.1
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> I think we have a pending issue as for which namespace rif:imports is =
> >>>> in. The
> >>>>>> current text does not specifies this at all. There should be a =
> >>>> namespace
> >>>>>> document, too.
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> I have explicitly designated the following namespace URI:
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>            http://www.w3.org/ns/entailment/RDF-RIF-imports
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> I'm not sure who is responsible for setting up the namespace document, =
> >>>> but
> >>>>> text from this section should be sufficient for the body of such a =
> >>>> document.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am the one maintaining these and Sandro can also do it. That being =
> >>>> said, I am not sure that is the right place to do this. The =
> >>>> .../entailment/XXX URI-s are used designate specific entailment regimes, =
> >>>> and this is something different.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ideally, this predicate should be in the rif namespace, but that would =
> >>>> require, I presume, an agreement from the RIF group (that again falls =
> >>>> into the domain of Sandro and Axel, I am afraid). We may have to mint a =
> >>>> URI of its own, which looks a bit silly....
> >>>
> >>> I don't see the rif namespace as a problem, if that's where it makes
> >>> sense to put it (whatever it is).  Either the RIF WG is okay with the
> >>> design, in which case it grants permission, or it isn't okay with the
> >>> design, in which case there are much bigger problems than the namespace.
> >>> Of course, the rif namespace is an XML namespace, not (yet) and RDF
> >>> namespace, but I'm hoping to make it both with the RIF-in-RDF encoding.
> >>>
> >>>    -- Sandro
> >>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>> -----------
> >>>>>> Section 7.1
> >>>>>> In other words, I cannot dynamically assign rule sets to the dataset. =
> >>>> For a
> >>>>>> user this looks like a serious restriction because that means that =
> >>>> the dataset
> >>>>>> provider dictates the rule sets it has, rather than the user.
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Isn't it possible to say that the rdf:imports can also be part of the =
> >>>> BGP and
> >>>>>> has, well, the same semantics of referring to a rule set?
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> Actually, the same question applies to various OWL regimes, too. Can =
> >>>> I have a
> >>>>>> [] owl:imports <...> in my BGP? Should we allow this?
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> Per the thread with you and Birte on this, I have not done anything =
> >>>> since a
> >>>>> more fundamental change to the SPARQL syntax would be needed to =
> >>>> facilitate
> >>>>> query-time specification of a ruleset to use (and this was ruled out =
> >>>> early).
> >>>>
> >>>> Well... indeed, Birte convinced me that the current setup is actually =
> >>>> fine, and an import can be done via an extra graph that uses the import. =
> >>>> That being said, I do not understand your last remark: with the =
> >>>> semantics of rif:import one _can_ specify the rule set dynamically at =
> >>>> query time (provided the endpoint is capable of reading an RDF file at =
> >>>> an external URI). And that is the right thing to have!
> >>>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>>> -----------
> >>>>>> I wonder whether it would be good adding some additional (informal) =
> >>>> text in
> >>>>>> the RIF related text that makes it clear that, although we define the
> >>>>>> entailment regime only in terms of the RIF-Simple, it is possible to =
> >>>> define
> >>>>>> RIF Core rule sets that describe RDFS and even OWL-RL. Ie, with =
> >>>> suitable rule
> >>>>>> sets, this entailment is much more powerful than it looks at first. A
> >>>>>> reference to
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-rif-owl-rl-20100511/
> >>>>>> =20
> >>>>>> and to ter Horst's paper (which, actually, still appears in the =
> >>>> reference
> >>>>>> list) would be useful.
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> I've added a new section: 7.2 Custom Rulesets for Common Vocabulary
> >>>>> Interpretations (Informative) that discusses this.
> >>>>
> >>>> Yep! Thanks
> >>>>
> >>>> Ivan
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> -- Chime
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> >>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
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> >>>>> Visit us online at http://www.clevelandclinic.org for
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> >>>>> =20
> >>>>> =20
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> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> ----
> >>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
> >>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> >>>> mobile: +31-641044153
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> >>>> --Apple-Mail-20--508810017--
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> 
> 
> ===================================
> 
> P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail
> 
> Cleveland Clinic is ranked one of the top hospitals
> in America by U.S.News & World Report (2009). 
> Visit us online at http://www.clevelandclinic.org for
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> Confidentiality Note:  This message is intended for use
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Received on Tuesday, 18 May 2010 16:51:15 GMT

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