From: Andy Seaborne <andy.seaborne@talis.com>

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:18:27 +0000

Message-ID: <4B179E83.20101@talis.com>

To: Steve Harris <steve.harris@garlik.com>

CC: Paul Gearon <gearon@ieee.org>, SPARQL Working Group <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>

Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2009 11:18:27 +0000

Message-ID: <4B179E83.20101@talis.com>

To: Steve Harris <steve.harris@garlik.com>

CC: Paul Gearon <gearon@ieee.org>, SPARQL Working Group <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>

On 02/12/2009 11:32, Steve Harris wrote: > On 1 Dec 2009, at 21:06, Paul Gearon wrote: Paul - these examples are very useful for me to understand the design space. > >> The main question on updates seems to be around referring to multiple >> graphs, so these operations are based on that idea. I'll be using some >> common prefixes (foaf:, contact:), so I hope no one minds if I don't >> define them. >> >> I can't recall if I'm supposed to be writing according to a specific >> syntax, so I'll offer a couple of variations. >> >> The first case has one source for pattern matching, and one >> destination for insertion. >> This example copies the contents of one graph into another. >> >> (1) The original form would be: >> >> INSERT INTO <destination> { ?s ?p ?o } >> WHERE { GRAPH <source> { ?s ?p ?o } } >> >> (2) With the recent changes: >> >> WITH <source> >> INSERT INTO <destination> { ?s ?p ?o } >> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } >> >> >> (3) Or using GRAPH instead of INTO: >> >> WITH <source> >> INSERT { GRAPH <destination> { ?s ?p ?o } } >> WHERE { ?s ?p ?o } > > So, in this case wouldn't INSERT ... FROM be a perfectly reasonable > thing to write? It would have the same meaning as in SELECT, wouldn't it? > >> (4) Then dropping WITH: >> >> INSERT { GRAPH <destination> { ?s ?p ?o } } >> WHERE { GRAPH <source> { ?s ?p ?o } } >> >> (The last would be valid even if WITH is adopted) So the original form is also legal and the same? >> >> >> === >> >> This example has 2 sources for pattern matching and 1 destination for >> insertion. >> >> To create entries for people in a new graph if they live in London and >> have an email address stored in a separate graph: >> >> (1) >> INSERT INTO <people_graph> { ?person a foaf:Person } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <address_graph> { >> ?person contact:home [ contact:city "London" ] >> } . GRAPH <mail_graph> { >> ?person foaf:mbox ?mail >> } >> } >> >> (2) >> WITH <address_graph> >> INSERT INTO <people_graph> { ?person a foaf:Person } >> WHERE { >> ?person contact:home [ contact:city "London" ] . >> GRAPH <mail_graph> { ?person foaf:mbox ?mail } >> } >> >> (3) >> WITH <address_graph> >> INSERT { GRAPH <people_graph> { ?person a foaf:Person } } >> WHERE { >> ?person contact:home [ contact:city "London" ] . >> GRAPH <mail_graph> { ?person foaf:mbox ?mail } >> } >> >> (4) >> INSERT { GRAPH <people_graph> { ?person a foaf:Person } } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <address_graph> { >> ?person contact:home [ contact:city "London" ] >> } . GRAPH <mail_graph> { >> ?person foaf:mbox ?mail >> } >> } If WITH is required, the parsing problems go away. It's not exactly the same as MODIFY - it's better to have the URI introduced to span the WHERE as well. But isn't this just modified MODIFY now? >> >> === >> >> This example has multiple sources for pattern matching, multiple >> sources for deletion, and a single destination for insertion. >> >> To delete email addresses from graphs a, b, and c, and insert them >> into a graph called email_graph: What is the correct terminology for one these WITH..(INSERT|DELETE)*..WHERE things? Suggestion: an "operation" is the unit (includes all the other units in teh update language) and "request" is zero or more "operations" sent by the client. >> >> (1) can't be done in one step >> >> (2) >> # WITH is being used on the destination, but could be applied elsewhere >> WITH <email_graph> >> DELETE FROM <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email }; >> DELETE FROM <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email }; >> DELETE FROM <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email }; >> INSERT { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <a> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <b> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <c> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> } >> >> (looks like a good case for FROM NAMED) >> >> (3) >> WITH <email_graph> >> DELETE { GRAPH <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> DELETE { GRAPH <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> DELETE { GRAPH <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> INSERT { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <a> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <b> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <c> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> } > > Wouldn't > > DELETE { > GRAPH <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > GRAPH <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > GRAPH <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > } > INSERT { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > WHERE { > GRAPH <a> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} > UNION GRAPH <b> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} > UNION GRAPH <c> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} > } > > do the job? > >> (4) >> DELETE { GRAPH <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> DELETE { GRAPH <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> DELETE { GRAPH <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> INSERT { GRAPH <email_graph> {?person foaf:mbox ?email } } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <a> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <b> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> UNION GRAPH <c> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} >> } >> >> >> Alternatively, instead of the union it could be something like: >> DELETE { GRAPH <?g> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> INSERT { GRAPH <email_graph> {?person foaf:mbox ?email } } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <?g> {?person foaf:mbox ?email} . >> FILTER (?g == <a> || ?g == <b> || ?g == <c>) >> } > > s/<?g>/?g/ Overall, it may be better as several operations: do the inserts then do the deletes (assuming a/b/c != email_graph :-) An example of this use case: WITH <a> <b> <c> INSERT INTO <email_graph> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } WHERE { ?person foaf:mbox ?email} DELETE FROM <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } DELETE FROM <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email }; DELETE FROM <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email }; What's the limit of what can be done in a single oepration? If we want to be able to do the full range of changes in a single request, let along operation, we may need to have temporary graphs or temporary places to put the result of WHERE (c.f. Eric's FeDeRate) so they are can be reused Another route is to not assume every possible change can be done in one go and place the responsibility on the client with multiple changes. While that may seem at first sight a bad move, (atomicity etc) I thin that in practice, very complex operations will not be formulated into some amazing request but done step-by-step with inspection of the effects so far. > >> This example has a single source for pattern matching, and multiple >> destinations for insertion: >> >> (1) not possible >> >> (2) >> WITH <people_graph> >> INSERT INTO <email_graph> {?person foaf:mbox ?email }; >> INSERT INTO <name_graph> {?person foaf:name ?name } >> WHERE { >> ?person a foaf:Person >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:name ?name } >> } > > Surely variable bindings don't span the ; ? That was my understanding as well. > >> (Have we decided what happens with an unbound value? That entry gets >> skipped? I'm guessing so, but I don't recall it being addressed) > > That's what happens in CONSTRUCT, so it seems logical. > >> (3) >> WITH <people_graph> >> INSERT { GRAPH <email_graph> {?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> INSERT { GRAPH <name_graph> {?person foaf:name ?name } } >> WHERE { >> ?person a foaf:Person >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:name ?name } >> } >> >> (4) >> INSERT { GRAPH <email_graph> {?person foaf:mbox ?email } }; >> INSERT { GRAPH <name_graph> {?person foaf:name ?name } } >> WHERE { >> GRAPH <people_graph> { >> ?person a foaf:Person >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } >> OPTIONAL { ?person foaf:name ?name } >> } >> } > > Again the ; here is confusing. It seems like you only need one INSERT > block if you have the GRAPH syntax. > > - Steve None of these example motivate the need for multiple INSERT/DELETE per operation and in particualr in mixed order. I can't find any discussion at the F2F - it just appears at one point with no rationale noted. Could someone say why they are needed? Example? An alternative is to put all the DELETEs together and then all the INSERTS. Why would one want to have a later DELETE affect an earlier INSERT in the same operation? DELETE { all the deletes - multiple BGPs/GRAPH } INSERT { all the inserts - multiple BGPs/GRAPH } WHERE { } Whether it's GRAPH or INTO/FROM to direct to a specific graph is anotehr issue. (GRAPH is the only proposal I've seem that uses teh same word for INSERT and DELETE). In the log of F2F2: PROPOSED: use GRAPH inside insert/delete templates instead of FROM/INTO (subject to approval from Update Editors.) (the "subject ..." were added to proposals because I asked that the update editors in the loop). (these were not RESOLVED -- due to numbers present?) E.g. Steve's example. my indentation, above: > Wouldn't > > DELETE { > GRAPH <a> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > GRAPH <b> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > GRAPH <c> { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > } > INSERT { ?person foaf:mbox ?email } > WHERE { ... > do the job? AndyReceived on Thursday, 3 December 2009 11:19:03 GMT

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