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minutes 2007-03-13

From: Eric Prud'hommeaux <eric@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:13:37 -0400
To: public-rdf-dawg@w3.org
Message-ID: <20070314201337.GP13846@w3.org>
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes


   [1]W3C 

                                RDF DAWG Weekly

13 Mar 2007

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          AndyS EliasT LeeF Orri PatH SimonR Souri SteveH ericP iv_an_ru
          jeen

   Regrets
   Chair
          LeeF

   Scribe
          EricP

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]review action items
         2. [6]unexpected/auto DISTINCT
         3. [7]issues list purge
     * [8]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________________

   <AndyS> SPARQL/Update :: a draft proposal for comment ::
   [9]http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update.html

   <LeeF> Agenda:
   [10]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/014
   6.html

   -> [11]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes minutes from
   2007-03-06

   PROPOSED: approve minutes from 2007-03-06 as a true record of the last
   meeting

   APPROVED

   next meeting: 2007-03-20T14:30Z, scribe: EliasT

review action items

   <LeeF> ACTION: EricP to add text to spec noting that ORDER BY
   comparisons may use extended implementations of < that operate on
   types beyond what's given in the operator table [DONE] [recorded in
   [12]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   action -1

   <LeeF> ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the
   existing tests [recorded in
   [13]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
   [CONTINUES]

   <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not)
   POSTing application/sparql-query documents [recorded in
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
   [CONTINUES]

   <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests should
   be put [recorded in
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action05]
   [CONTINUES]

unexpected/auto DISTINCT

   ->
   [16]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/014
   7 Eric's summary of the DISTINCT issue

   LeeF: any epiphones?

   SimonR: partial DISTINCTness available via a clever OPTIONAL clause

   default keywords

   1 ALL DISTINCT

   2 ALL DISTINCT, LOOSE

   3 LOOSE DISTINCT

   4 LOOSE DISTINCT, ALL

   5 DISTINCT

   Steve: -1 +.5 -1 +1 -1

   Jeen: +1 0 0 0 -1

   Orri: +1 0 0 0 -1

   ericP: +.9 0 -.5 +1 -1

   SimonR: 0 0 0 0 0

   AndyS: +1 0 -1 -1 -1

   patH: +1 +1 0 0 0

   EliasT: +1 0 -1 -1 -1

   LeeF: appears to be leaning towards 1

   SteveH: implementing ALL easy (and done)
   ... but I lose a lot of performance
   ... may implement it, but add a LOOSE keyword

   <AndyS> Observation: LOOSE = ALL over an imaginary smaller
   dataset/graph.

   <SimonR> DISTINCT/ALL is sort of the difference between
   COUNT(PROJECT(X)) and PROJECT(COUNT(X)) -- maybe if projection wasn't
   tied to the SELECT clause we'd have a better way. (As always, too much
   change required to explore this....)

   Souri: 0 +1 0 0 0

   <patH> Not always, I think, Andy. Because that smaller imaginary graph
   wouldnt give you all the real answers.

   <AndyS> Simon - agree - there an overly tight binding of project and
   expressions

   <SteveH> observation: noone disliked 2 explictly

   <AndyS> Example: 1,1,1,2,2,2,3,3,3 ORDER BY, LIMIT 3 => 1,1,1 ; 1,2,2
   ; 1,1,2 ; 1,2,3 ??

   <patH> Can we do 2 but not REQUIRE that loose be supported?

   <SteveH> patH, an impl of LOOSE = ALL or DISTINCT is valid

   <AndyS> It would be the only optional feature in the spec.

   <AndyS> And we have no service descriptions :-)

   ericP: now +1 on 2

   <LeeF> PROPOSE: SPARQL SELECT queries with no keyword following SELECT
   must return the precise cardinality of duplicate solutions specified
   by the algebra; SPARQL contains a @@ LOOSE keyword that allows
   duplicate solutions to be returned with cardinality of at least 1 and
   no greater than that specified by the algebra

   SteveH: query modification to access functionality is fine for me

   +1

   AndyS: am reluctant introduce a new keyword for an seemingly
   arbitrarily selected optimization

   <LeeF> Option 1: by default, ALL; only keyword is DISTINCT

   ericP: we have a test with counting semantics already. AndyS, SteveH
   and I passed it but with different assumptions (1 vs 2)

   <LeeF> Option 2: by default, ALL; add a @@ LOOSE keyword

   EliasT: +1 0

   patH: 0 +1

   AndyS: +1 -1

   <SimonR> SimonR: 0 0

   ericP: 0 +1

   orri: +1 0

   jeen: +1 0

   SteveH: -1 +1

   Souri: 0 +1

   <LeeF> 3 and 3

   <AndyS> 3 and 4 on +1's :: each has a -1

   LeeF: share andy's concearn, but can mark it "at risk" and let
   implementors define

   AndyS: i think that putting it in and marking it "at risk" is setting
   the default

   out of connearn for Steve-like implementations, i change to: -1 +1

   <scribe> ACTION: ericP to draft text about a LOOSE keyword and run it
   by w3 folks to see if we're abusing the "at risk" mechanism [recorded
   in [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   <LeeF> ACTION: LeeF to seek guidance about at-risk features from the
   CG [recorded in [18]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   LeeF: if that's acceptable, I will propose 2, otherwise propose 1
   ... KendallC says we should say what's informative vs. normative
   ... AndyS said that unless otherwise noted, numbered sections are
   normative and lettered appendicies are informative
   ... i think that 2 and 3 are informative

   I just labeled 2 and 3 informative

   <LeeF> ACTION: ericP to mark sections 2 and 3 informative, Appendices
   B and D normative in the text and table of contents and 1.1 document
   outline [recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

issues list purge

   <LeeF> [20]nested optionals

   LeeF: I believe that the algebra in the document addresses nested
   optionals

   <LeeF> PROPOSED that the current algebra of rq25 addresses
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nestedOptionals

   AndyS: I think it does

   APPROVED

   <scribe> ACTION: LeeF to close nested optionals issue [recorded in
   [22]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   <LeeF> [23]bnodeRef

   LeeF: I believe that the current draft addresses this

   patH: yes

   <LeeF> PROPOSED that the current treatment of bnode labels in rq25
   addresses [24]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef

   <AndyS> And we aren't proposing the first part (exposing the labels in
   results)

   APPROVED

   <scribe> ACTION: LeeF to close bnodeRef issue [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   <scribe> ACTION: PatH to investigate closing the entailment issue
   [recorded in [26]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   <LeeF> [27]open world issues

   <AndyS> Example: "xyz"@en > "abc"@en

   ->
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#operatorExtensibili
   ty 11.3.1 Operator Extensibility

   <LeeF> """

   <LeeF> Extended SPARQL implementations may support additional
   associations between operators and operator functions; this amounts to
   adding rows to the table above.

   <LeeF> """

   <AndyS> Example: "xyz"@en = "abc"@EN

   <AndyS> Example: "abc"@en = "abc"@EN

   <SimonR> (Say, weren't language tags case-sensitive...?)

   "abc"@en = "abc"@EN

   <LeeF> I think RDF C&AS says they are case insensitive

   ->
   [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#func-RDFterm-equal
   11.4.10 RDFterm-equal

   <LeeF> 

   <LeeF> "Plain literals have a lexical form and optionally a language
   tag as defined by [RFC-3066], normalized to lowercase."

   <LeeF> "Note: The case normalization of language tags is part of the
   description of the abstract syntax, and consequently the abstract
   behaviour of RDF applications. It does not constrain an RDF
   implementation to actually normalize the case. Crucially, the result
   of comparing two language tags should not be sensitive to the case of
   the original input."

   <LeeF> from ->
   [30]http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Literal-Equality RDF
   C&AS

   { "abc"@en = "abc"@EN } => { "abc"@en = "abc"@en }

   <LeeF> """

   <LeeF> 11.3.1 Operator Extensibility

   <LeeF> Extended SPARQL implementations may support additional
   associations between operators and operator functions; this amounts to
   adding rows to the table above. No additional operator support may
   yield a result that replaces any result other than a type error in an
   unextended implementation. The consequence of this rule is that
   extended SPARQL implementations will produce at least the same
   solutions as an unextended implementation, and may, for some queries,
   produce more

   <LeeF> """

   [[

   SPARQL language extensions may provide additional associations between
   operators and operator functions; this amounts to adding rows to the
   table above. No additional operator may yield a result that replaces
   any result other than a type error in the above table. The consequence
   of this rule is that SPARQL extensions will produce at least the same
   solutions as an unextended implementation, and may, for some queries,
   produce more solutions.

   ]]

   ""No additional operator may yield a result that replaces any result
   other than a type error in the above table.""

   <LeeF> PROPOSED that the text in 11.3.1 Operator Extensibility in rq25
   addresses
   [31]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#openWorldValueTesting

   +1

   APPROVED: AndyS and patH abstaining

   <scribe> ACTION: LeeF to close openWorldValueTesting issue [recorded
   in [32]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   LeeF: anyone intending to submit further reviews?

   patH: insofar as my action entails a review of section 12, yes

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to draft text about a LOOSE keyword and run it by
   w3 folks to see if we're abusing the "at risk" mechanism [recorded in
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: ericP to mark sections 2 and 3 informative, Appendices B
   and D normative in the text and table of contents and 1.1 document
   outline [recorded in [34]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: LeeF to close bnodeRef issue [recorded in
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: LeeF to close nested optionals issue [recorded in
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: LeeF to close openWorldValueTesting issue [recorded in
   [37]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: LeeF to seek guidance about at-risk features from the CG
   [recorded in [38]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]
   [NEW] ACTION: PatH to investigate closing the entailment issue
   [recorded in [39]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   [PENDING] ACTION: EricP to run the yacker tool over and annotate the
   existing tests [recorded in
   [40]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
   [PENDING] ACTION: LeeF or EliasT to reply to Bjoern regarding (not)
   POSTing application/sparql-query documents [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
   [PENDING] ACTION: LeeF to remember that the wee, lost filter tests
   should be put [recorded in
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action05]

   [DONE] ACTION: EricP to add text to spec noting that ORDER BY
   comparisons may use extended implementations of < that operate on
   types beyond what's given in the operator table [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc]

   [End of minutes]
     _________________________________________________________________


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References

   Visible links
   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0146.html
   3. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
   4. http://mouni.local/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes#agenda
   5. http://mouni.local/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes#item01
   6. http://mouni.local/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes#item02
   7. http://mouni.local/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes#item03
   8. http://mouni.local/2007/03/13-dawg-minutes#ActionSummary
   9. http://jena.hpl.hp.com/~afs/SPARQL-Update.html
  10. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0146.html
  11. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes
  12. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  13. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action03
  14. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action07
  15. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action05
  16. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2007JanMar/0147
  17. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  18. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  19. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  20. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nestedOptionals
  21. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nestedOptionals
  22. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  23. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef
  24. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef
  25. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  26. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  27. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#openWorldValueTesting
  28. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#operatorExtensibility
  29. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/rq25#func-RDFterm-equal
  30. http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-concepts/#section-Literal-Equality
  31. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#openWorldValueTesting
  32. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  33. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  34. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  35. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  36. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  37. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  38. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  39. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  40. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action03
  41. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action07
  42. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/06-dawg-minutes.html#action05
  43. http://www.w3.org/2007/03/13-dawg-irc
  44. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  45. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

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-- 
-eric

office: +1.617.258.5741 NE43-344, MIT, Cambridge, MA 02144 USA
cell:   +1.857.222.5741

(eric@w3.org)
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