W3C

DAWG Telcon

5 Jan 2006

Agenda

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
DanC, EricP, AndyS, LeeF, EliasT, JeenB, EnricoFranconi, SteveH, Kendall_Clark, Jos_De_Roo, PatH, Bijan_Parsia, Jeen_Broekstra
Regrets
Libby, Bijan(part)
Chair
DanC
Scribe
jeen

Contents


<DanC> sergio gets a gold star for including test cases/examples in his msg of Thu, 5 Jan 2006 12:19:56 +0100

<SteveH> no :(

Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

<DanC> minutes 20 Dec

<DanC> "update" agendum didn't get proper markup, but no biggy

<DanC> RESOLVED to accept DAWG Weekly -- 20 Dec 2005 as a true record

<kendallclark> sorry to be late, my IRC client went bad and I didn't realize it

<DanC> np KC; we're booting

<kendallclark> i also have a bad cough today, so i'll be muted as much as possible

<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35463/exteljan2006/results

<DanC> Jeen Likely to miss january 10th.

<DanC> regrets Janne Saarela 5Jan

<DanC> regrets PatH

<bijan> I'm watching and can switch over at need

<LeeF> Go away, Zakim.

<Jos_De_Roo> Zaki, ??P65 is me

<SteveH> i can do it if i get a mic working by then

<DanC> ok, I'll take it

<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet next 10 Jan, scribe SteveH (we hope)

<kendallclark> Hmm, I had a conflict about scribing next week because I didn't want to do it. Thanks, Zakim!

<kendallclark> rock!

<kendallclark> (i cleared several months old actions!! :>)

<DanC> ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT * [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: AndyS to Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: Jeen to edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint. [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<scribe> ACTION: Lee to review XSLT in results format update. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

# issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol

<DanC> Query by Reference

<DanC> KC 4 Jan 2006

Kendall: leigh suggested we allow 'query by reference' in the protocol: point to location for query in request.
... not particularly hard to do, not particularly compelled to add it either, happy to do what the WG wants (correct?)

<kendallclark> (yes)

(jeen has some headphone trouble, difficult to understand speakers)

<AndyS> Hmm

ericP: does not think it's risky, not very motivated to add it either.

<kendallclark> it's strongly analagous to what cwm does, I think. but YMMV.

Kendall: early version of the protocol draft had this feature

<EliasT> I second it.

<kendallclark> bad connect, sorry

<DanC> PROPOSED: to postpone queryByReference , due to lack of detailed implementation experience

<kendallclark> and i don't see any constraint on the size of the postponed issues list :>

<AndyS> +1

<DanC> so RESOLVED.

<DanC> ACTION: KC to review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [DONE] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<DanC> ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<kendallclark> we may in fact be WSDL 2.0's earliest adopter :>

Toward updated protocol WD (and results format WD)

protocol testing update

<scribe> ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

EliasT: am running it in python and java, using Andy's joseki stuff

<DanC> ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

issues#rdfSemantics, issues#owlDisjunction

<bijan> One sec

<DanC> from http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/weekly-agenda

<EnricoFranconi> my last thext is at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0018

<DanC> "specific wording proposals 29 Dec and 2 Jan."

<EnricoFranconi> of today

<kendallclark> bad ring on the line now

<DanC> sergion on rdfSemantics with test sketches

<kendallclark> thx eric

<DanC> Re: SPARQL semantics: open issues for basic query patterns

DanC: want to add test case from the example given in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html

<AndyS> The XML Results talks about labels scoped to the document

<bijan> ?x foaf:nick "Bijan". ?x ?p ?o.

<EnricoFranconi> the problem is that the current text is *not* equivalent to the original (and agreed upon) text using matching

<LeeF> sergio's query: SELECT * { ?x ?p ?y }

<LeeF> bijan: More unsettling problem is on coreference within results

<EnricoFranconi> all implementations use graph matching between the query and the data - the current text does not characterise that

<LeeF> patH: criteria should be entailment of the pattern by the graph. if you want proper coreference, include the coreference within the pattern

<LeeF> bijan: I'd expect coreferences between rows in the resultset anyway because if i have 2 people in my FOAF data with foaf:nick "Bijan" -- but other properties differ between the 2 -- it's important to relate the proper properties w/ the proper person

<LeeF> DanC: I don't think any of the proposed designs address this

<LeeF> DanC: none of the current proposed designs talk about anything beyond single query results

<AndyS> Nov 2 doc is Enrico/Sergio's SPARQL semantics doc

<bijan> I'm also going off of this passage in sergio's message:

<kendallclark> i can hear him, but no comprehension

<bijan> """In fact, bnodes in answer sets are really useful only to discover co-

<bijan> references among different pattern solutions (or even within the same

<bijan> one). This means that unless a bnode name is used in the "same way"

<bijan> across different entailment checks, the user cannot trust bnodes in

<bijan> an answer set."""

<DanC> design option, new to me: matching definitions that consider multiple answers, i.e. an answer set. (introduced Nov by Enrico, evidently)

<EnricoFranconi> without coreference bnodes in the answer are useless

<EnricoFranconi> you better get rid of them

<SteveH> my implementation does what bijan said

<AndyS> "Solution Sequence"

<DanC> ... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/

<AndyS> sec 10.1

<kendallclark> gone now

<LeeF> heisenecho

<kendallclark> heh

<DanC> "The solution sequence from matching the query pattern is an unordered collection formed from the solutions of the query pattern."

<kendallclark> you hope, dan! :>

<EnricoFranconi> Did anybody read my proposed text?

<LeeF> yeah, that was very sneaky, Dan :)

<AndyS> Yes - I read it.

<EnricoFranconi> comments?

<patH> Enrico, I didnt but I am doing.

<DanC> ACTION: PatH to draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<AndyS> Please can we discuss the other issue Sergio rasied (the not "unsettling" first one)

<EnricoFranconi> ok

<DanC> ACTION: Enrico to review draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<EnricoFranconi> but my text is already ok for this :-)

<EnricoFranconi> in fact

<patH> Yes, now I understand answer SET scoping, I think it will be easy to fix all of the issues Sergio raises.

<DanC> Proposed changes by FUB

<LeeF> DanC: Does this proposal need a way to specify entailment types?

<EnricoFranconi> actually I will be happy even by leaving out alternative entailemnts

<EnricoFranconi> FUB is happy to have only the default simple entailemnt

<EnricoFranconi> I'll send a new text today

<kendallclark> indeed

<patH> I think Zakim thinks I am AndyS. Hmm, maybe I am?

<kendallclark> god. worst call quality ever.

AndyS: there are still outstanding comments re rdf merge

<LeeF> good call content, though.

<kendallclark> yes

<LeeF> patH: two orthogonal questions: 1) scoping of bondes within results document 2) do we need to allow alternative entailments to be specified?

<EnricoFranconi> FUB is happy to postpone parametrised entailemnt, but with the current proposed text by FUB today

<LeeF> DanC: 2nd question has a consensus of postponing parametrised entailment, show where it would go in extensions

<EnricoFranconi> point (1) is solved by theorem 1 of the proposed text of today

<EnricoFranconi> so path revises my text I'll send out later today

<patH> OK.

<DanC> ACTION 6 = PatH: revise Enrico's "Proposed changes" on matching and entailment for solution sequences, esp w.r.t. RDFmerge/order

<DanC> jos pls make test case from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html ?

<kendallclark> (oh! jos is here, I didn't realize. Hi Jos!)

<patH> Hi Jos

<DanC> ACTION: JosD to make test case from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<DanC> ACTION: Bijan to elaborate on test/example of foaf query where bnodes cross answers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<AndyS> There may be one like that already (easy action!)

<bijan> yay!

<bijan> jeen, send them!

issues#valueTesting

<kendallclark> *nasty*

<DanC> ACTION: EricP to add test case for support of xsd:boolean (ala (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean ) [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

<ericP> [[

<ericP> The canonical representation for boolean is the set of literals {true, false}.

<ericP> ]]

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#boolean

<patH> Will we get grief from i18n for using English words in canonical forms?

<patH> That was NOT a joke.

<patH> Ah, OK.

<AndyS> Should rebuild value from any form. So xfer should be safe.

<Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask about Sergio's first example (short?)

<DanC> back to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html

<EnricoFranconi> it is not a typo: it shows that the current text is broken!

<LeeF> Yes

<LeeF> I've got it.

Toward CR

<LeeF> 75 minutes ago

<kendallclark> 75 minutes ago

<LeeF> jinx

<kendallclark> time flies when yr torturing people! :>

<LeeF> No

<kendallclark> 2nd adjournment

<kendallclark> Do that after adjournment?

<DanC> ADJOURN.

<ericP> ACTION: EricP to respond to, or at least consider, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Dec/0008 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Bijan to elaborate on test/example of foaf query where bnodes cross answers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Enrico to review draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: EricP to respond to, or at least consider, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Dec/0008 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: JosD to make test case from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2006JanMar/0021.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: Lee to review XSLT in results format update. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[NEW] ACTION: PatH to draft text on matching and entailment for solution sequences [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: EricP to add test case for support of xsd:boolean (ala (?a = ?b) = "true"^^xsd:boolean ) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
 
[DONE] ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: AndyS to Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: Jeen to edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
[DONE] ACTION: KC to review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2006/01/05-dawg-irc]
 
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2005/08/16 15:12:03 $