W3C

DAWG Weekly

20 Dec 2005

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
LeeF, JanneS, AndyS, DanC, EricP, Jeen, SteveH, PatH, JosD, EliasT, SouriD
Regrets
Miller, Clark
Chair
DanC
Scribe
LeeF
Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0374.html

Contents


 

 

<AndyS> zakim ??P1 is AndyS

<scribe> Scribe: LeeF

Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

<ericP> oops

<DanC> record 13 Dec

APPROVED http://www.w3.org/2005/12/13-dawg-irc as true record of 13 Dec

RESOLVED to cancel 27 Dec

<DanC> 3Jan regrets JanneS

<ericP> 3Jan regrets EricP

<DanC> RESOLVED to cancel 3 Jan

<DanC> RESOLVED: to meet 10 Jan, JanneS to scribe

comment: SPARQL Results Format and Unbound Variables

<DanC> PROPOSED: to adopt option C 'collapsed' from Jeen's msg of 13 Dec, elaborated 14 Dec, along with ammendment to drop sorting constraint from Lee

<DanC> RESOLVED, EricP abstaining.

<DanC> ACTION: Jeen to edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

<DanC> ACTION: Lee to review XSLT in results format update [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action02]

issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol

<DanC> ACTION: [DONE] DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments. PaulD 15 Nov. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action03]

<DanC> query by reference

DanC: I gather there's support, modulo detail concerns

AndyS:actually, I don't find sufficient motivation

ericP: would adding support for query by reference mean adding a use case in uc&r?

DanC: not necessarily

<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action04]

<scribe> ACTION: KC to review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action05]

protocol testing update

EliasT: I should have time to finish protocol test suite in the coming weeks

<DanC> ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action06]

<scribe> ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action07]

<DanC> seen opera, govtrack http://esw.w3.org/topic/DawgShows

DanC:when was last release? 14 September 2005. just over 3 monts. ripe for another.

<DanC> more when Kendall returns.

<DanC> Zakimm, close this item

<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action08]

<scribe> ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec [CONTINUES] [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action09]

CONSTRUCT *

<DanC> andy on construct *

<Zakim> ericP, you wanted to mention annotea experience

<DanC> noodling on poll options: (a) action ppl to sketch tests (pref EricP, JeenB) (b) decide it's not worth the bother, and that it should wait for rules, perhaps

<SteveH> steve

jeen: SeRQL does Andy's option 2 - compiles a single graph (without context information) from the union of all graph patterns

ericP: prefers to leave it as LC

patH: no opionion; +.5 A

EliasT: +1 b

<AndyS> ARQ used to do sort of 1-ish and 2-ish - took it out when "CONSTRUCT *" removed

JanneS: +1 a , needs more study

AndyS: +.5 a

LeeF:no opinion; +.5 a, +.5 b

DanC: +1 b (schedule grounds)

jeen: +1 a

<SteveH> +0.5 b

ericP: +1 b

<SteveH> (no voice)

SteveH: +.5 b

JosD: +1 b

<DanC> PROPOSED: to leave out CONSTRUCT *, as the cost of delaying the SPARQL spec to work out the design details, and the risk of conflict with rules designs, outweighs the convenience of adding it

ericP: convenience method for reproducing query is at odds with if you have a graph with non-RDF knowledge, finding a way to incorporate it as RDF in the result

RESOLVED

<DanC> ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT * [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action10]

issues#rdfSemantics

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics. progress/done -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0340.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action18]

AndyS: thinks that everyone is in agreement in the non-told-bnodes case of rdfSemantics

<DanC> postponed told bnodes 12 July http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef

AndyS: working group has decided to postpone bnode issue http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#bnodeRef

DanC: all design options i can see exceed our charter. i'd need a strong use case and requirement to consider this...

AndyS: URI solution has a drawback -- dealing with someone else's date who has, for example, a lot of lists in it

DanC: Understood -- our responsibility is the ?var part that gets to the list; RDF Core's job for the rest of it

patH: disagreement with Sergio over whether querying an axiom against an empty graph which supports RDF-S entailment should succeed (patH - no, Sergio - yes)

<SteveH> hard to say

<AndyS> SELECT * { ?s ?p ?o }

<DanC> rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Resource # an RDFS axiom

ASK {rdfs:Class rdfs:subClassOf ?x}

true or false?

against an empty graph

<SteveH> 3store doesnt allow rdfs queries against empty graphs, it adds the axiomatic triples when you create the kb

<AndyS> So 3Store just does not have empty graphs? - i.e. query is always against the logical closure

JosD: in this case it will be empty but if you ask about rdf:containerMembershipProperty than you would get an answer (?? couldn't hear clearly)

<AndyS> Thx - that's clear. The name-of-logical-closure seems relevant here.

<DanC> SELECT ?P WHERE { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } # pat asks JosD, against empty graph

<ericP> PatH, does this affect both FROM empty:graph ASK {?s ?p ?o} and FROM rdfs:closure(empty:graph) ASK {?s ?p ?o}

JosD: If you ask about a particular rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty then you will get an answer

patH: Debate is only about variable bindings

AndyS: sounds like a feature to me

<JosD> ELECT ?P WHERE { ?P rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty } no answer

<AndyS> ELECT? Update proposal? :-)

<JosD> :)

DanC: Does this design postpone OWL Disjunction issue?

<DanC> ... in a tasteful way?

AndyS: I think it allows OWL Disjunction...

patH: Allows the little house example when extended to OWL entailment

<ericP> ASK { [] rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty }

<ericP> ASK { ?V rdf:type rdfs:ContainerMembershipProperty }

ericP: first one is true, second is false?

patH: yes -- there's nothing to bind ?V to in the seccond case

ericP: are you wrong if those aren't your answers?

AndyS: No, then you'd only be using simple entailment [not RDF-S entailment]

ericP: are we acting against the virtual graph?

<ericP> ASK { [] [] [] }

patH: we're acting against an intelligent closure -- doesn't add in infinitely many unnecessary triples

<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday

patH: ASK { [] [] [] } fails with simple entailment, succeeds with any entailment that adds axiomatic triples

<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.

patH: little house example is a counter-example to the idea of using OWL closures. works with OWL entailment

DanC: ...at which point we're no longer in the SPARQL spec

<AndyS> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#BasicGraphPatternMatching

<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (@@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.

<ericP> is [] an alluded-to bNode?

<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano by this Friday. ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.

<DanC> PROPOSED: that http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ 1.596 (section 2, @@NO TOLD BNODES options) addresses rdfSemantics, and that it's sufficient to postpone owlDisjunction, contingent on acceptance (including silence) by UMD and Free University of Bozen-Bolzano in a week (by 27 Dec). ACTION PatH, DanC to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al.

<SteveH> yes

<EliasT> second

<DanC> so RESOLVED.

RESOLVED

<AndyS> ACTION: AndyS to Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action11]

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] PatH: to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action19]

<DanC> ACTION: DanC to with PatH to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action12]

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action13]

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action14]

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action20]

<DanC> PROPOSED: to postpone http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#update

<SteveH> +1

<DanC> so RESOLVED.

<DanC> anybody seen http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#nameValueForms

test suite maintenance

<DanC> andy on double/decimal tests

<SteveH> html should be updated

<AndyS> ta

<DanC> revision 1.2 date: 2005/12/13 14:14:56DataAccess/tests/data/ExprEquals/query-eq-graph-2.rq

<SteveH> yes, but i think i fail them

<ericP> agenda request: f2f at TP

<scribe> ACTION: [DONE] AndyS to Make the decimal/double test changes for later WG approval -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0335.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action15]

<scribe> ACTION: [CONTINUES] EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16 ]

<scribe> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action17]

<scribe> ACTION: [CONTINUES] DaveB: add to test suite the temperature case from comment on truth tables in commentor's message -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0030.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action21]

extra teleconferences in January

<JanneS> wed+thu same time 1430utc works for me - the earlier the better. Have to go for tonight. cheers

cheers, JanneS

<DanC> PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan

<SteveH> whats that in utc?

<DanC> PROPOSED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan

<SteveH> i will be 15mins late

and keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC?

<DanC> yes, and keep 14:30 UTC

<EliasT> I can too..

<DanC> RESOLVED: to have telcons Thursdays, 11amET/1600UTC for 1 hour, 5, 12, 19, 26 Jan, and to keep Tuesdays at 14:30UTC, 60 to 90 minutes (hoping for more like 60)

ftf

ftf at TP in 2-3Mar

<SteveH> yes to meeting

<AndyS> and discuss LC comments. LC may be closed by then.

<DanC> possible goals: * organizing CR test work * outreach, dev support * future work, postponed issues (overlap with rules)

<DanC> TP2006 Working Groups f2f and Room Allocation [ACL?]

<EliasT> me too

<SteveH> y

<DanC> (andy, I'm having serious 2nd thoughts about whether to have a 2nd last call or not)

<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 2-3Mar 2006 in the W3C Technical Plenary in the south of France [noting this goes beyond current 31 Jan 2006 charter duration]

<AndyS> (DanC, that's cool)

<DanC> so RESOLVED.

<DanC> ADJOURN

<AndyS> Horray! #rdfSemantics

<SteveH> bye

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: AndyS to respond re CONSTRUCT * [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action10]
[NEW] ACTION: AndyS to Revise rq23 to reflect the decison (remove told bnode text) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action11]
[NEW] ACTION: DanC to with PatH to respond to PFPS, Horrocks, et. al. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action12]
[NEW] ACTION: EliasT to recruit somebody to try out the protocol test harness, perhaps from the -comments list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeen to edit results format per C 'collapsed' ; drop sorting constraint [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: Lee to review XSLT in results format update [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action02]
 
[PENDING] ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action17]
[PENDING] ACTION: DaveB: add to test suite the temperature case from comment on truth tables in commentor's message -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Aug/0030.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action21]
[PENDING] ACTION: EricP to fix test schema to match manifest with negative tests [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/09/27-dawg-minutes.html#action16]
[PENDING] ACTION: Jeen try to reproduces EliasT's protocol testing results [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action07]
[PENDING] ACTION: KC to review sparql-types for xs:any weirdness, w.r.t. WSDL 2.0 constraints [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action05]
[PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to add a modified version of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#security to protocol editor's draft, as well as a pointer to the section in rq23 itself [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action08]
[PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to propose revised WSDL descripton of SPARQL protocol [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action04]
[PENDING] ACTION: KendallC to remove uses of "my" in URIs in protocol spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action09]
 
[DONE] ACTION: AndyS to Make the decimal/double test changes for later WG approval -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0335.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action15]
[DONE] ACTION: DanC to notifty DAWG of WSDL response to our WSDL comments. PaulD 15 Nov. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action03]
[DONE] ACTION: PatH: suggest where "simple entailment" should go, re rdfSemantics. progress/done -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005OctDec/0340.html [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action18]
[DONE] ACTION: PatH: to get Enrico's feedback on PatH's proposal to stick to the Last Call design [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action19]
[DONE] ACTION: Bijan to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding, and what will not [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action13]
[DONE] ACTION: Enrico to take a pass through the editor's draft, listing what will change with the new semantics understanding ... [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action14]
[DONE] ACTION: Bijan: estimate impact of "abstract syntax entailment" etc. on WG test harness [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/12/20-dawg-minutes.html#action20]
 
[End of minutes]

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