[1]W3C [2]RDF Data Access WG [1] http://www.w3.org/ [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ RDF Data Access Weekly Teleconference 29 Mar 2005 See also: [3]agenda, [4]IRC log [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0510.html [4] http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-irc Attendees Present Kevin, Yoshio, DanC, BryanT, AndyS, EricP, Kendall_Clark, PatH, JanneS Regrets DaveB, SteveH, JosD Chair DanC Scribe EricP Contents * [5]Topics 1. [6]Convene, take roll, review records and agenda 2. [7]Use Cases and Requirements publication 3. [8]issue: sort 4. [9]issue: valueTesting 5. [10]SPARQL QL LC Candidate 6. [11]privacy section for protocol spec 7. [12]issue: wsdlAbstractProtocol, fromUnionQuery 8. [13]issue: xmlAbstractSyntax * [14]Summary of Action Items _________________________________________________________________ Convene, take roll, review records and agenda Scribe: EricP RESOLVED to ammend [15]MInutes of the 2005-03-22 RDF DAWG teleconference for review with [16]action tracking notes and accept it as a true record [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0472.html [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0520.html ACTION: DaveB to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer [recorded in [17]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action01] ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in [18]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action02] ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page [recorded in [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action03] ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs [recorded in [20]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action04] ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [recorded in [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action05] ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) [recorded in [22]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action06] ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [recorded in [23]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action07] ALL CONTINUED without discussion next meeting: 5 Apr... then let's do meet 5 Apr, KC to scribe. Regrets for next week (April 5) regrets 2 week hence: EricP, DaveB, SteveH plus, AndyS, if i recall his vacation schedule I think there is considarable concern on XML serialization of the resutl ( vs. issue) We didn't discuss that due to DaveB's absence and lack of time. Use Cases and Requirements publication DONE: KC, AFS, EP to publish usecases 1.148 + revision to 2.18 by KC, reviewed by AFS, plus editorial fixups by KC, ok'd by EricP DONE: [24]http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-dawg-uc-20050325/ and [25]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases is back to editor's draft status 1.158 [24] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-dawg-uc-20050325/ [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases "We invite feedback on which features are required for a first version of SPARQL and which should be postponed in order to expedite deployment of others." -- [26]http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-dawg-uc-20050325/ [26] http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-rdf-dawg-uc-20050325/ DONE: Kendall to To rewrite 2.18: change the title, don't motivate "update", spell "WSDL" correctly. :> DONE: [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases 1.149 [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases issue: sort ACTION: PatH to review sort design in 2 weeks [recorded in [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action10] 1.278 [29]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ [29] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/ andy believes he has reached a quiescient (SP?) state DONE: Kevin to review sort design at earliest convenience [recorded in [30]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action11] [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/048 3.html [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0483.html quiescent Google :: define:quiescent => "refers to a state of resting, inactivity or latency" Also "A volcano, which is not active, but is still registering seismic activity." :-) How could we extend from lexical comparison to achieve value comparison in a subsequent design? Kevin: I pointed out a few issues (consistency with distinct and a few others) ... Thought the interest was in ORDER BY and LIMIT, which is doable with LEXICAL sort Andy, lexical ordering doesn't neccesarily give you total ordering Kevin: we could have a future syntax for value ordering I think the problem is that data could be gathered from various sources, where the data type are different Andy: my pref is to go with value ordering (what people expect) ... we can do lexical sort with str(?foo) Andy, how does typing interact with functions to specify how a value sort will be applied? DanC: we can also postpoine... no takers. See doc : can write "ORDER BY x:func(?x)" as a (partial) ordering issue: valueTesting ACTION: EricP to propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others) [recorded in [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action12] CONTINUED. expect to meet end of month deadline action -10 AndyS, you wanted to ask about != (I suspect "error" is misleading terminology... "unkown" might communicate the notion better) EricP: how do people feel about requiring explicity casts where XQuery would not require them? [ no probs with it ] #invocation #StandardOperations Yoshio, you wanted to ask if this applies to cases where there is no data for deciding the equality Yoshio: how about unknown equiv in sorting? PatH: how about we don't define it so folks don't rely on it. me: even if they are of the same data type tx DanC, you wanted to ask if the "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe test is in the test suite, and ask for a volunteer if not and to reiterate suggestion about compliance and unknown AndyS: in SQL world, people do rely on the ordering and causes trouble ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe [recorded in [33]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action13] SPARQL QL LC Candidate ACTION: AndyS to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption [CONTINUED] [recorded in [34]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action14] ... pending discussion with Bob and Jess Geoff tx I'm for construct * DONE: AndyS to explain how to get a whole graph with CONSTRUCT * and GRAPH. [recorded in [35]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action15] long conversation sorta put me off attending to it carefully, sorry :> It's not CONSTRUCT * but there is "Accessing Graphs in the RDF Dataset" "Accessing Graphs in the RDF Dataset" -- [36]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#construct [36] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#construct DONE , above pointer action -14 (hmm, another reason for a getGraph in the protocol is for implementations taht don't support construct at all.) ACTION: DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle [recorded in [37]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action16] AndyS: won't get rid of all the todos by thur. ... which way do you want it? it's by-invitation only, so Eric's trying to be respectful of that. :> it was scheduled a long time ago, btw Dan, since Andy will be pulling hair for the 31st, why don't we just back the candidate for review by another week - especially since we have one meeting canceled. ACTION: DanC to review editors draft (delivered 31 Mar) by 5 Apr [recorded in [38]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action17] Kendall expects Bijan to review it ACTION: EricP to notify the WG of editors draft (or change of plans) by 31 Mar [recorded in [39]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action18] DanC: Andy, anything test that does not have a clear outcome is critical path privacy section for protocol spec ACTION: EricP to propose "privacy considerations" for SPARQL protocol [DONE] [recorded in [40]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action20] ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste [recorded in [41]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action19] issue: wsdlAbstractProtocol, fromUnionQuery [42]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol [42] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#wsdlAbstractProtocol "wsdl interfaces" better than "abstract protocol", but -shrug- KendallC: happy with the WSDL except some bits of WSDL 2.0 that I don't know how to spell ... have carefully tried to document a non-researchy interface don't know how to spell *yet* :> "(SPARQLQuery and SPARQLDiscovery and SPARQLQueryAndDiscovery)" SPARQLQuery SPARQLSaddle SPARQLQS SPARQLQuery -> SparqlQuery; SPARQLDiscovery -> SparqlSaddle; SPARQLQueryAndDiscovery -> SparqlQS KendallC: total of 8 interfaces OPTIONS: all 5 primary (total 8), 3 SPARQLQuery SPARQLSaddle SPARQLQS, other (none, something else) KendallC: 5 primative interfaces and 3 unions of them 5 primary, 4 "derived interfaces OPTIONS: all 5 primary (total 9), 3 SPARQLQuery SPARQLSaddle SPARQLQS, other (none, something else) Zakim who's on the phone? Do we have a mapping of these interfaces onto the use cases? AndyS: interested in 3. don't know how datasets work in this proposal ooh, yoshio makes a good point. thanks. have a mispelling. Kevin: nothign to say, not at boston Yoshio: nothing to say DanC: in favor of 3 BryanT: want to interface to create and drop graphs EricP: 3 KendallC: pass PatH: pass Janne: originally wanted lots of primitives. now want minimal set. 3. KendallC: (unpassing) i remember 3 getting the most support in BOS. Graph retrieval has support to go to its own interface. DanC: JaceK pointed out an existing interface and the room got quiet. tx KendallC: not making a pitch for the derived interfaces. just thought they were a nice organisational tool. Own what issue? ACTION: KendallC to own WSDL interfaces. [recorded in [43]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action21] action -20 (I have to run for tonight - cheers) ACTION: KendallC to add WSDL description of protocol to editor's draft, propose to WG. [recorded in [44]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action22] make sure it includes wsdlAbstractProtocol action -21 issue: xmlAbstractSyntax ACTION: KendallC to tie WSDL description (wsdlAbstractProtocol) of protocol to editor's draft, propose to WG. [recorded in [45]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action23] [46]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#xmlAbstractSyntax [46] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#xmlAbstractSyntax [47]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.xsd [47] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.xsd [48]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc [48] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rnc [49]http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rng [49] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/sparqlx.rng scribe is losing connectivity notes at risk # SPARQL Abstract Syntax Seaborne, Andy (Monday, 21 March) [50]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/039 3.html [50] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005JanMar/0393.html sparqlx.rnc 1.6 makes sense to me, i think KendallC: wasn't going to invest much work if it was not likely to gain support PatH: what are the design goals of the XML serialization? DanC: making two contrete syntaxes makes the abstract syntax clear ... in web services, the input in defined by XS datatypes. <> rdfs:seeAlso [51]http://www.w3.org/TR/xqueryx/ [51] http://www.w3.org/TR/xqueryx/ [plus, i keep getting hints that my connectivity is at risk] FWIW I didn't make the abstract syntax obvious because there was only one concrete syntax BryanT: how coupled is the human syntax to the X-syntax oh, also, another design goal is to not worry overly about being able to roundtrip from surface syntax to xml and back -- hence, no PREFIX in the XML. Andy: change from RDQL to N3 syntax did not impact the abstract syntax [missing all voice now] can i get a substitute scribe? ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff [recorded in [52]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action24] ADJOUNRED Summary of Action Items [CONTINUED] ACTION: AndyS to add the above graph test cases (analagous to valueTesting test cases) (don't expect quick delivery) [recorded in [53]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action06] [NEW] ACTION: AndyS to propose a test re "x"^^mytype != "y"^^mytpe [recorded in [54]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action13] [CONTINUED] ACTION: DanC to follow up re optional test based on op:dateTime triple [recorded in [55]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action02] [NEW] ACTION: DanC to review editors draft (delivered 31 Mar) by 5 Mar [recorded in [56]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action17] [CONTINUED] ACTION: DaveB to consider dots in qnames, report on impact on turtle [recorded in [57]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action16] [CONTINUED] ACTION: DaveB to consider use of xsi:dataType ala comment from Steer [recorded in [58]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action01] [CONTINUED] ACTION: DaveB to to propose source test to approve [recorded in [59]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action05] [NEW] ACTION: EricP to notify the WG of editors draft (or change of plans) by 31 Mar [recorded in [60]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action18] [CONTINUED] ACTION: EricP to pair with SteveH on making the HTML test results page [recorded in [61]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action03] [CONTINUED] ACTION: EricP to propose to close valueTesting (bonus points for test cases, to EricP or others) [recorded in [62]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action12] [CONTINUED] ACTION: KendallC to own wsdlAbstractProtocol (based on WSDL description added to protocol to editor's draft). [recorded in [63]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action22] [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to incorporate EricP's privacy text, salting to taste [recorded in [64]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action19] [NEW] ACTION: KendallC to work out remaining details in sparqlx.{rnc,xsd,rng}: expression syntax, order-by stuff [recorded in [65]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action24] [CONTINUED] ACTION: PatH to review sort design in 2 weeks [recorded in [66]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action10] [CONTINUED] ACTION: SteveH to prepare test cases for publication as WG Note (no deadline/urgency) [recorded in [67]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action07] [CONTINUED] ACTION: SteveH to to revise test manifest w.r.t. "background" and named graphs [recorded in [68]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action04] [PENDING] ACTION: AndyS to clarify 5.4 w/r/t closed world assumption [recorded in [69]http://www.w3.org/2005/03/29-dawg-minutes.html#action14] [End of minutes] _________________________________________________________________ EricP, scribe DanC, chair $Revision: 1.8 $ of $Date: 2005/03/29 16:33:33 $ minutes formatted by David Booth's [70]scribe.perl [70] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm