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minutes: agenda: RDF Data Access 28 Jun

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:11:11 -0500
To: RDF Data Access Working Group <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <1120169472.5150.344.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:14 -0500, Dan Connolly wrote:
> 1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
> 
>   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/
> 
>   2005-06-28T14:30Z **local times below
>   tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333
>   supplementary IRC chat:irc://irc.w3.org:6665/dawg
>     log to appear:http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc


http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes

text copy of version of $Date: 2005/06/30 22:07:23 $
follows

   [1]W3C

      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                         RDF Data Access Weekly Telcon

28 Jun 2005

Attendees

   Present
          AndyS, DanC, DaveB, Eric, Jeen_Broekstra, Kendall_Clark,
          KevinW, PatH, Souri, SteveH, Yoshio, ericP,

   Regrets
          HowardK

   Chair
          DanC

   Scribe
          KendallC + EricP + DanC

Contents/Agenda

    1. [2]Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
       http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/042
       2.html
    2. [3]Next ftf?
    3. [4]Comments
    4. [5]syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq
    5. [6]IRI normalization
    6. [7]Refining Optionals
    7. [8]solution modifiers & construct/describe
    8. [9]COUNT requirement?
    9. [10]SPARQL QL publication

   See also: [11]IRC log, [12]proposed agenda

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc
     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0422.html

     _________________________________________________________________

Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

   scribe: KendallC + EricP

   <kendall> scribing helps me follow the conversation anyway :>

   <ericP> yeah, i know what you mean

   RESOLVED to approve [13]minutes 7 Jun , [14]minutes 14 Jun

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0411.html
     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0412.html

   <kendall> Regrets (partial): HowardK

   RESOLVED to meet again 5 Jul per regular schedule; EricP to scribe

   note 4 Jul holiday in the US

Next ftf?

   Offer from HP for sometime in August

   During most (but not all) of the weeks of Augustin BRS

   <DaveB> I like brs in august :)

   <Yoshio> in which week of August?

   <kendall> I'll be in Houston for some 7 to 10 day stretch during
   August, but I'll try to avoid overlap with f2f.

   <ericP> ericP +1 to BRS in august in the range of 8-Aug - 18-Aug

   note [15]HP offer again.

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0383.html

   Chair suffers ennui, capitulates for now. :>

Comments

   [16]public-rdf-dawg-comments archive

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/

   DanC has a long outstanding comment re: INSERT...

   discussion of [17]blank node comments

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jun/0039.html

syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq (punctuationSyntax)

   <kendall> Tests affected by the proposal:
     * [18]tests/#syntax-qname-08-rq
     * [19]tests/#syntax-qname-14-rq

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-08-rq
     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-14-rq

   <DaveB> 08: WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

   WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

   Is there any new evidence to reopen the dots-in-qnames decision?

   <kendall> Other than that people keep being unhappy about it?

   EricP completely ambivalent

   PatH wonders whether redefining qname syntax is any of our business

   PatH suggests intra-spec consistency more important than minor (?)
   bits of convenience

   <DaveB> XML does have the '.' allowed

   <DaveB> whereas we currently don't

   <SteveH> DaveB, I though we did

   <kendall> +1 for XML qname rules from me

   <DaveB> err.., you are right we do now

   <SteveH> yes, +1 for XML rules

   <kendall> Yoshio: both! :>

   <Yoshio> :-)

   <kendall> but I meant between different specs, not within one spec. :>

   <kendall> (scribe dropping details...)

   differences from XML: _foo:bar not allowed

   differences from XML: foo: allowed

   <DaveB> andy says _:a is not allowed - diff from xml

   <DaveB> and currently _foo:bar also not allowed

   JosD notes considerable deployment of { a b c. }

   <DaveB> turtle's never allowed a b c.

   <kendall> (hmm, epistemic sins may seem to license future sins! :>)

   <SteveH> ericP, generated queries would need special rules for qnames
   with .s

   <DaveB> they'll need special rules anyway to escape <s, "s etc. etc.

   EricP: note qnames are just short-hand; in the general case, you can
   write out the full URI

   <AndyS> Is < legal in an IRI at all?

   <DaveB> you can use \u002E always anwyay

   <kendall> heh

   <ericP> a:b a:c <[20]http://example.org/#foo.>

     [20] http://example.org/#foo.%3E

   <ericP> a:b a:c c:foo.

   a:b a:c c:foo. .

   <kendall> eek

   <ericP> { a:b a:c c:foo. . a:d a:e a:f }

   <ericP> DaveB, i read c:foo.... as <$ns{c}:foo....>

   POLL: (a) not dots in qnames (b) dots in qnames except at the end (c)
   dots in qnames even at the end

   a -4

   a -5

   b -1

   c -1

   c -2

   <kendall> and qname rules are already maximally arbitrary, so one more
   bit isn't really one more! :>

   RESOLVED: to allow dots in qnames except at the end. Dave, Pat abstain

   <ericP> i'm happy for a decision

   <kendall> ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes.html#action01]

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes.html#action01

IRI normalization

   [22]msg from EricP

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0430.html

   [23]tests/data/i18n/normalization-01.rq

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/normalization-01.rq

   ACTION: EricP add a note that users should be aware of
   non-canonicalization of IRIs

   ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization

Refining Optionals

   [24]Refining Optionals from AndyS

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0415.html

   ACTION: PatH to review new optionals defintions, if any

solution modifiers & construct/describe

   [25]comments from KendallC

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0420.html

   <kendall> That would help, I think, make the design more clear.

   ACTION: AndyS to rework CONSTRUCT def'n

   ACTION: AndyS to add new construct examples, with solution
   modifier(s), to spec

COUNT requirement?

     * [26]Review: Query Result Form --> need COUNT ?

     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0435.html

   souri: making sure folks are conciously not including COUNT(*)

   <kendall> i could see the utility of COUNT, but i think we have to
   punt till 2.0 at this relatively late date

   <kendall> Need something in the results format to serialize it, as
   well

   <AndyS> Better design for ASK. Low cost for COUNT(*)

   <DaveB> we'd be adding a new result format

   <DaveB> that means new services, new xml formats

   <SteveH> AndyS, COUNT can be considerably more expensive than ASK

   <AndyS> Steve - ASK = SELECT EXIST in Souri's message

   <SteveH> AndyS, yes

   <DaveB> is EXIST a SQL keyword?

   Souri: we could have the results of COUNT as a new return type ala ASK

   Souri suggests a whole range of cardinality queries motivate this

   <Yoshio> I share the need for COUNT, remember the need I mentioned of
   giving the user the chance to polish the query...

   <ericP> AndyS: next step, GROUP BY, is expensive

   <kendall> simple v. complex (arbitrary) aggregates, basically

   <kendall> Souri suggests ASK is a kind of simple aggregate already

   <ericP> Souri: COUNT covers EXISTS (ASK) but is slightly more
   expensive

   <ericP> AndyS: are we ruling out or making later grouping
   functionality inconvenient

   <kendall> Yeah, +1 to pat's question

   <ericP> PatH: how?

   <ericP> AndyS: probably an unfortunate syntax choice

   <kendall> AndyS largely worried about syntax that might not be forward
   compatible

   <kendall> COUNT * only for now; then add COUNT var ... GROUP BY ...

   EricP wants to wait till we do aggregates generally.

   <kendall> (I agreed with that till Souri argued that ASK is already a
   simple aggregate which COUNT * would also be...)

   <kendall> Souri would be content w/ a deferral at this point

   RESOLVED: to add a count/aggregate issue and postpone it, due to
   schedule considerations

SPARQL QL publication

   Reviewing decision from last week:

     PROPOSED: to publish rq23 (1.395) , addressing FILTER and 3
     editorial changes, with KendallC & JosD reviewing these changes
     post 1.395, as a Last Call Working Draft

   DanC trying to figure out what the LC vote meant ...how much editing
   is up to the editors

   (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) ...

   <DaveB> & pick a namespace name for xmlresults?

   <DaveB> I pick [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

   <kendall> Do the editor's intend the doc to LC w/ the red sections
   about consensus issues still in the doc?

   TODO list for the spec:

   strike "@@Ensure markup around examples enables XSLT extraction."

   drop "@@Labeling when document is TOC-stable"

   <scribe> done @@Matching is on a graph from a dataset.

   "@@Prefix - sec 1.1 - See if there are any - consider rewriting if a
   just a few."

   strike.

   RESOLVED: [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults for results
   namespace name

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

   ACTION: DanC to put a doc at the new results format namespace

   RESOLVED: to publish SPARQL ql as last call, v1.406 + 9 changes,
   contingnent on review as follows
    1. optionals, andy/pat
    2. IRI non-normalization, ericp
    3. construct/limit andy/kc
    4. clarify which regex lang, new section ericp, andys
    5. defns extraction. ericp
    6. qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP
    7. results ns andys
    8. SOTD DanC, EricP
    9. production 20 grammar edit by andy

   ADJOURN.

     _________________________________________________________________


    minutes edited by DanC based on notes by KendallC and EricP
    formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.126
    $Date: 2005/06/30 22:07:23 $

     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm


-- 
Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Thursday, 30 June 2005 22:11:22 GMT

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