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minutes: agenda: RDF Data Access 28 Jun

From: Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>
Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 17:11:11 -0500
To: RDF Data Access Working Group <public-rdf-dawg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <1120169472.5150.344.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2005-06-27 at 14:14 -0500, Dan Connolly wrote:
> 1. Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
>   http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/
>   2005-06-28T14:30Z **local times below
>   tel:+1.617.761.6200 code:7333
>   supplementary IRC chat:irc://irc.w3.org:6665/dawg
>     log to appear:http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc


text copy of version of $Date: 2005/06/30 22:07:23 $


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                         RDF Data Access Weekly Telcon

28 Jun 2005


          AndyS, DanC, DaveB, Eric, Jeen_Broekstra, Kendall_Clark,
          KevinW, PatH, Souri, SteveH, Yoshio, ericP,



          KendallC + EricP + DanC


    1. [2]Convene, take roll, review records and agenda
    2. [3]Next ftf?
    3. [4]Comments
    4. [5]syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq
    5. [6]IRI normalization
    6. [7]Refining Optionals
    7. [8]solution modifiers & construct/describe
    8. [9]COUNT requirement?
    9. [10]SPARQL QL publication

   See also: [11]IRC log, [12]proposed agenda

     [11] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-irc
     [12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0422.html


Convene, take roll, review records and agenda

   scribe: KendallC + EricP

   <kendall> scribing helps me follow the conversation anyway :>

   <ericP> yeah, i know what you mean

   RESOLVED to approve [13]minutes 7 Jun , [14]minutes 14 Jun

     [13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0411.html
     [14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0412.html

   <kendall> Regrets (partial): HowardK

   RESOLVED to meet again 5 Jul per regular schedule; EricP to scribe

   note 4 Jul holiday in the US

Next ftf?

   Offer from HP for sometime in August

   During most (but not all) of the weeks of Augustin BRS

   <DaveB> I like brs in august :)

   <Yoshio> in which week of August?

   <kendall> I'll be in Houston for some 7 to 10 day stretch during
   August, but I'll try to avoid overlap with f2f.

   <ericP> ericP +1 to BRS in august in the range of 8-Aug - 18-Aug

   note [15]HP offer again.

     [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0383.html

   Chair suffers ennui, capitulates for now. :>


   [16]public-rdf-dawg-comments archive

     [16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/

   DanC has a long outstanding comment re: INSERT...

   discussion of [17]blank node comments

     [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2005Jun/0039.html

syntax-qname-08-rq and syntax-qname-14-rq (punctuationSyntax)

   <kendall> Tests affected by the proposal:
     * [18]tests/#syntax-qname-08-rq
     * [19]tests/#syntax-qname-14-rq

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-08-rq
     [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/#syntax-qname-14-rq

   <DaveB> 08: WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

   WHERE { :a. x.: : . }

   Is there any new evidence to reopen the dots-in-qnames decision?

   <kendall> Other than that people keep being unhappy about it?

   EricP completely ambivalent

   PatH wonders whether redefining qname syntax is any of our business

   PatH suggests intra-spec consistency more important than minor (?)
   bits of convenience

   <DaveB> XML does have the '.' allowed

   <DaveB> whereas we currently don't

   <SteveH> DaveB, I though we did

   <kendall> +1 for XML qname rules from me

   <DaveB> err.., you are right we do now

   <SteveH> yes, +1 for XML rules

   <kendall> Yoshio: both! :>

   <Yoshio> :-)

   <kendall> but I meant between different specs, not within one spec. :>

   <kendall> (scribe dropping details...)

   differences from XML: _foo:bar not allowed

   differences from XML: foo: allowed

   <DaveB> andy says _:a is not allowed - diff from xml

   <DaveB> and currently _foo:bar also not allowed

   JosD notes considerable deployment of { a b c. }

   <DaveB> turtle's never allowed a b c.

   <kendall> (hmm, epistemic sins may seem to license future sins! :>)

   <SteveH> ericP, generated queries would need special rules for qnames
   with .s

   <DaveB> they'll need special rules anyway to escape <s, "s etc. etc.

   EricP: note qnames are just short-hand; in the general case, you can
   write out the full URI

   <AndyS> Is < legal in an IRI at all?

   <DaveB> you can use \u002E always anwyay

   <kendall> heh

   <ericP> a:b a:c <[20]http://example.org/#foo.>

     [20] http://example.org/#foo.%3E

   <ericP> a:b a:c c:foo.

   a:b a:c c:foo. .

   <kendall> eek

   <ericP> { a:b a:c c:foo. . a:d a:e a:f }

   <ericP> DaveB, i read c:foo.... as <$ns{c}:foo....>

   POLL: (a) not dots in qnames (b) dots in qnames except at the end (c)
   dots in qnames even at the end

   a -4

   a -5

   b -1

   c -1

   c -2

   <kendall> and qname rules are already maximally arbitrary, so one more
   bit isn't really one more! :>

   RESOLVED: to allow dots in qnames except at the end. Dave, Pat abstain

   <ericP> i'm happy for a decision

   <kendall> ACTION: JosD to fix up the relevant tests [recorded in

     [21] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/28-dawg-minutes.html#action01

IRI normalization

   [22]msg from EricP

     [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0430.html


     [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/data/i18n/normalization-01.rq

   ACTION: EricP add a note that users should be aware of
   non-canonicalization of IRIs

   ACTION: SteveH to review the relevant test case re: IRI normalization

Refining Optionals

   [24]Refining Optionals from AndyS

     [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0415.html

   ACTION: PatH to review new optionals defintions, if any

solution modifiers & construct/describe

   [25]comments from KendallC

     [25] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0420.html

   <kendall> That would help, I think, make the design more clear.

   ACTION: AndyS to rework CONSTRUCT def'n

   ACTION: AndyS to add new construct examples, with solution
   modifier(s), to spec

COUNT requirement?

     * [26]Review: Query Result Form --> need COUNT ?

     [26] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2005AprJun/0435.html

   souri: making sure folks are conciously not including COUNT(*)

   <kendall> i could see the utility of COUNT, but i think we have to
   punt till 2.0 at this relatively late date

   <kendall> Need something in the results format to serialize it, as

   <AndyS> Better design for ASK. Low cost for COUNT(*)

   <DaveB> we'd be adding a new result format

   <DaveB> that means new services, new xml formats

   <SteveH> AndyS, COUNT can be considerably more expensive than ASK

   <AndyS> Steve - ASK = SELECT EXIST in Souri's message

   <SteveH> AndyS, yes

   <DaveB> is EXIST a SQL keyword?

   Souri: we could have the results of COUNT as a new return type ala ASK

   Souri suggests a whole range of cardinality queries motivate this

   <Yoshio> I share the need for COUNT, remember the need I mentioned of
   giving the user the chance to polish the query...

   <ericP> AndyS: next step, GROUP BY, is expensive

   <kendall> simple v. complex (arbitrary) aggregates, basically

   <kendall> Souri suggests ASK is a kind of simple aggregate already

   <ericP> Souri: COUNT covers EXISTS (ASK) but is slightly more

   <ericP> AndyS: are we ruling out or making later grouping
   functionality inconvenient

   <kendall> Yeah, +1 to pat's question

   <ericP> PatH: how?

   <ericP> AndyS: probably an unfortunate syntax choice

   <kendall> AndyS largely worried about syntax that might not be forward

   <kendall> COUNT * only for now; then add COUNT var ... GROUP BY ...

   EricP wants to wait till we do aggregates generally.

   <kendall> (I agreed with that till Souri argued that ASK is already a
   simple aggregate which COUNT * would also be...)

   <kendall> Souri would be content w/ a deferral at this point

   RESOLVED: to add a count/aggregate issue and postpone it, due to
   schedule considerations

SPARQL QL publication

   Reviewing decision from last week:

     PROPOSED: to publish rq23 (1.395) , addressing FILTER and 3
     editorial changes, with KendallC & JosD reviewing these changes
     post 1.395, as a Last Call Working Draft

   DanC trying to figure out what the LC vote meant ...how much editing
   is up to the editors

   (1) optionals, andy/pat, (2) IRI non-normalization, ericp (3) ...

   <DaveB> & pick a namespace name for xmlresults?

   <DaveB> I pick [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

   <kendall> Do the editor's intend the doc to LC w/ the red sections
   about consensus issues still in the doc?

   TODO list for the spec:

   strike "@@Ensure markup around examples enables XSLT extraction."

   drop "@@Labeling when document is TOC-stable"

   <scribe> done @@Matching is on a graph from a dataset.

   "@@Prefix - sec 1.1 - See if there are any - consider rewriting if a
   just a few."


   RESOLVED: [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults for results
   namespace name

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/06/sparqlResults

   ACTION: DanC to put a doc at the new results format namespace

   RESOLVED: to publish SPARQL ql as last call, v1.406 + 9 changes,
   contingnent on review as follows
    1. optionals, andy/pat
    2. IRI non-normalization, ericp
    3. construct/limit andy/kc
    4. clarify which regex lang, new section ericp, andys
    5. defns extraction. ericp
    6. qname-dots grammar. AndyS, EricP
    7. results ns andys
    8. SOTD DanC, EricP
    9. production 20 grammar edit by andy



    minutes edited by DanC based on notes by KendallC and EricP
    formatted by David Booth's [29]scribe.perl version 1.126
    $Date: 2005/06/30 22:07:23 $

     [29] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

Dan Connolly, W3C http://www.w3.org/People/Connolly/
D3C2 887B 0F92 6005 C541  0875 0F91 96DE 6E52 C29E
Received on Thursday, 30 June 2005 22:11:22 UTC

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