W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-rdf-comments@w3.org > May 2013

Re: PrEfIx and BaSe should be removed from Turtle

From: Peter Ansell <ansell.peter@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 07:03:37 +1000
Message-ID: <CAGYFOCQkQGtzOrBU_Ei40UTiswd-LUE4iJK36J9waMj0V9bSdA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org>
Cc: Gavin Carothers <gavin@carothers.name>, RDF-WG WG <public-rdf-wg@w3.org>, "public-rdf-comments@w3.org" <public-rdf-comments@w3.org>, David Booth <david@dbooth.org>, David Robillard <d@drobilla.net>, Gregory Williams <greg@evilfunhouse.com>
On 23 May 2013 02:43, Sandro Hawke <sandro@w3.org> wrote:

>  On 05/15/2013 10:48 PM, Gavin Carothers wrote:
>
>
> <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#prefix-and-base-should-be-removed-from-turtle>PrEfIx
> and BaSe should be removed from Turtle
>
> PREFIX and BASE were added as features at risk to Turtle before CR.
> Designed to make it easier to copy and paste between Turtle and SPARQL they
> have proven controversial. As they are a controversial addition to a
> settled language they should be removed.
>
>
> I don't agree.     Removing them would do a disservice to the future users
> of Turtle.
>
> To be clear: it's a "coin-toss" non-technical decision whether to require
> the @-sign.   It doesn't have a significant impact on implementation
> difficulty; has no impact on expressive power, etc.   It's just a question
> of style and tradition.
>
> As a question of style, I think the @ is ugly and annoying.    "@" means a
> lot of different things, usually somewhat related to the notion of "at".
> sandro "at" w3.org.    comment reply directed "at" sandro.    In Turtle
> it already has another meaning, for language tags: "chat" "at" fr.  Okay,
> that's not a good fit for "at" -- but it's still another meaning for
> "@".    How are people supposed to read "@prefix"?   Like it's a  chat
> message directed at the prefix processor?
>
> Historically, the @ was there because Tim didn't want to claim the
> barewords in the language for keywords.   He wanted to allow for
> prefix-less terms, I believe.    But the "a" keyword already violates that,
> and Turtle isn't going to allow prefix-less terms.   (I pushed for that at
> one point and the WG had zero interest.)   So that reason has no weight --
> there's no longer a technical reason to have @.
>
> Now we come to tradition.  Here we have dueling traditions of N3/Turtle
> with the @-sign and SPARQL (and kind of every other language) without the
> @-sign.   On the one hand, we have lots of people using N3 and Turtle.  On
> the other hand, we have lots of people using SPARQL.   SPARQL is a W3C
> Recommendation while N3 and Turtle are not.   SPARQL is perhaps used more
> internally, while N3 and Turtle are published in the open.
>
> Some people say, "but they are different" -- SPARQL is a database
> interface language, Turtle is a data format, so they can and should be
> arbitrarily different -- but I don't find this compelling at all.  I think
> it makes perfect sense to say Turtle and SPARQL (and TriG) are composed of
> the same pieces, put together in the obvious ways for the obvious
> purposes.  To say that two of the pieces (the directives with and without
> @-sign) serve the exact same purpose but are not interchangeable seems to
> me to be an obvious design flaw.
>
> We can't just remove the @-sign, because there's lots of Turtle using it
> already, but I see no reason not to allow a slow migration to begin.
>
> Bottom line:* I think it's burden on users to have to keep track of
> arbitrary and meaningless syntactic differences between closely related
> languages.*   There's a burden to changing, but I believe Turtle will
> have far more users in the future than it has today.
>
> As I said on the call, this is not a do-or-die thing, of course.   I don't
> think we need to spend a lot of time arguing about it.   Folks did ask me
> to state my reasons, though, so I've done that.   If we require @-signs in
> Turtle, I believe it will be a mistake.    (Not the first, not the last,
> ...  :-)
>
>
In this case the delayed standardisation process doesn't really allow for
you to say "If we require", as practically the W3C would be expected to
standardise something that fits with existing deployments unless there is a
technical hurdle within the format. If the W3C were designing the syntax
from scratch within a standardisation track then you would be perfectly
able to say that existing deployments were just experimentally using an
early draft of the format and they could change their limited,
experimental, deployments over to the new syntax. That clearly isn't the
case here where there are a large number of static Turtle files and
RDF-to-Turtle serialisers that have always used it. As I said to Eric, and
as Gavin quoted below, you can't use the "future users are more significant
then current users" to remove support for a feature that isn't actually
hindering anything technically.

If Turtle is not going to remove support for the syntax, then it would be
much more confusing for users to have two fairly different syntaxes (given
the difference with the dot at the end) than to have one, as machine
generated Turtle may still use @prefix and @base for the foreseeable future
to maintain backwards compatibility.


> (Closely related, I think TriG (beyond the directives) needs to be a
> subset of the SPARQL quad pattern syntax, allowing the GRAPH keyword and
> not requiring braces around the default graph.  I mention it here because
> the arguments are very similar.)
>
>
Does TriG currently allow @base redefinitions or @prefix definitions inside
of Graphs? If so we will be in exactly the same position there where there
is no copy and paste support anyway, lest someone has relied on the ability
to redefine the base within their triples for some valid purpose.

In the same way people are not allowed to copy and paste Turtle documents
into SPARQL if they rely on that ability, or if they are not completely
sure that their copy and pasted Turtle file does not rely on that ability
or have any redefined prefixes internally. Hence, in both cases, not
switching to use the SPARQL style when it is not copy and pastable in the
general case doesn't have a technical downside, as the ability was never
really there.


>      -- Sandro
>
>
>    <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#rationale>Rationale
>
> The FPWD for the Turtle document published by this working group included
> the following:
>
> Turtle is already a reasonably settled serialization of RDF. Many
> implementations of Turtle already exist, we are hoping for feedback from
> those existing implementers and other people deciding that now would be a
> good time to support Turtle. There are still a few rough edges that need
> polishing, and better alignment with the SPARQL triple patterns. The
> working group does not expect to make any large changes to the existing
> syntax.
>
> The laudable goal of reducing copy and paste errors in both Turtle and
> SPARQL is not strong enough to change a settled serialization.
>
> None of the arguments in support of the feature deal with what
> serialization should be preferred. Introducing the feature also creates
> issues with the existing @prefix and @base syntax and if they should or
> should not require a trailing period. Again, there is no clear guidance for
> serializers. This feature also introduces the first case insensitive
> keyword in Turtle all other Turtle keywords are case sensitive.
>
> Lastly, the goal of full copy and paste between SPARQL and Turtle will not
> be achieved only by adding this feature. A range of other issues exist
> preventing this.
>  <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#actions>Actions
>
>    - Remove "Feature at Risk" box
>    - Remove grammar rules 5s, 6s
>    - Update grammar rule 3 to read prefixID | base
>    - Change grammar note 1 to "All keywords are case sensitive"
>
> The grammar at that point requires no magical understanding of case rules
> as all rules express the case of their keywords.
>
> <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#ways-forward-for-those-that-like-copying-and-pasting-prefixbase>Ways
> forward for those that like copying and pasting PREFIX/BASE
>
> I'd direct your attention to the conformance section of the Turtle
> document. http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#conformance "This specification
> does not define how Turtle parsers handle non-conforming input documents."
> That note is not there by mistake.
>
> <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#selected-messages-and-threads-from-outside-of-wg>Selected
> Messages and Threads (From outside of WG)
>
> Yes, I read all the threads again, just a few are included here.
>  <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#supporting>Supporting
>
> David Booth david@dbooth.org
> http://www.w3.org/mid/516EAFDF.50708@dbooth.org
>
> Copy and paste between Turtle and SPARQL is *very* common, particularly
> in debugging. Having to change the prefix syntax back and forth is a
> significant and pointless waste of time. Please find a path to a single
> compatible syntax.
>  <https://gist.github.com/gcarothers/5589022#in-opposition>In opposition
>
> Gregory Williams greg@evilfunhouse.com 2013-03-01:
> http://www.w3.org/mid/C52BE515-076D-4D10-82D0-27FD757F2F48@EVILFUNHOUSE.COM
>
> I'd like to take this opportunity to provide feedback on the inclusion of
> SPARQL BASE and PREFIX syntax in the new Turtle grammar. I think this is a
> mistake, adding complexity for both users and implementors. I'm sympathetic
> to the desire to align syntax for triples between Turtle and SPARQL, but
> don't believe the alignment is necessary or recommended for the top-level
> language syntax (as the need for backwards compatibility with pre-REC
> Turtle means that alignment requires two different syntaxes for the same
> declarations).
>
> David Robillard d@drobilla.net 2012-10-08:
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-comments/2012Aug/0028.html
>
> For what it's worth, as a Turtle implementer I am opposed to this change.
> It is ugly and inconsistent with the language, clearly an import that does
> not belong.
>
> While it is unfortunate that SPARQL did not use the @directive convention
> from N3, Turtle does not contain SELECT and such either. While triple
> copying and pasting between the languages is desirable (even if it has
> polluted Turtle with path grammar and horrific escaping rules), the
> directives between the two languages are not compatible.
>
> I do not consider messing up the Turtle specification in this way
> appropriate. If implementations want to support this as an extension, they
> may. I won't.
>
> Peter Ansell ansell.peter@gmail.com 2013-04-28
> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAGYFOCQKfygwogHQj_b7=nW1CrxM4aq5XUdgJg4nx4uaUSKZFw@mail.gmail.com
>
> I am sorry, but I completely disagree that changing a fundamental part of
> an established syntax as part of its long-delayed "standardisation" process
> can be rationalised by saying that hypothetical future users will
> appreciate it and it doesn't matter what a community of current users think.
>
>
>
Received on Wednesday, 22 May 2013 21:04:09 UTC

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