Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?

Well, I am not an aria expert, and this group isn't really chartered for
epub work (unless it is? I can never keep my charters straight), but it
might produce something in the future that does have support for
running head/foot, so we shouldn't overly restrict ourselves. But it does
seem to me that any future formats would want to have the same capabilities
as a word processor when it comes to explicitly skipping or reading the
running heads/feet.

On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:40 AM Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
wrote:

> Brady, that's great to know. And since we drop the headers/footers on
> export, it sounds like we already do the right thing?
>
> Sounds like we only really need the ARIA for the web view, not the EPUB
> export.
>
> Aaron
>
> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 11:32 AM Brady Duga <duga@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Docs does in fact have native epub export (File -> Download -> EPUB
>> Publication), largely driven by Garth Conboy (also a co-chair of this
>> group). However, there is currently no facility in epub to do dynamic page
>> numbering, though of course implementations may generate them for their UI.
>> In the past, dynamic page numbering that changes with reflow has been
>> experimented with, but the community has largely moved to fixed page
>> numbers. This allows a user to understand their location after eg text zoom
>> (page 250 is always 50% of a 500 page book). The other common use is to
>> share location information succinctly and precisely, eg "class, turn to
>> page 250". It is unclear to me how important having a generated page number
>> is. There is also no particularly good way to do running page-header/foot
>> in epub, though a hacky facility to do it did exist at one point.
>> Currently, running heads are dropped in Docs to epub export. Future work in
>> this area will likely be done in collaboration with CSS, assuming we
>> actually decide to do it.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 8:01 AM Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> George, sounds like you are saying that if Docs is to export to EPUB (I
>>> don't think it currently does, but maybe there's an extension?) -- then
>>> there would be a set of requirements to ensure good quality navigation.
>>>
>>> Aaron
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 10:48 AM George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> OK, when using  Google Docs and using the publish this document, the
>>>> spot of the page break at the top must contain the  doc-page-break
>>>> attribute. Also, when generating the EPUB version, this is the spot
>>>>
>>>> That must be linked Along with the number that must be in the page list
>>>> in the navdoc.
>>>>
>>>> In this way, people using the print version and the EPUB version can be
>>>> on the same page, grin.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 7:08 AM
>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <
>>>> kerscher@montana.com>; Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>;
>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh, Google Docs has a "publish this document" feature, as well as
>>>> a mode where users can read, but not edit a document. In the published
>>>> case, there is no caret navigation built in. Being able to skip over
>>>> running page content should work in any of these modes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When zooming in the browser, I would not currently expect pagination to
>>>> change at all. However, if such a zoom and reflow feature did exist, and
>>>> repagination did occur, I imagine that the user would want to be able to
>>>> refer to original page numbers, similarly to Braille print page indicators.
>>>> I'm not sure how this would be handled, but I suppose it's worth discussing
>>>> how the role doc-pagenum would be used. Let's think it out. Personally I
>>>> don't think it should be required for the doc-pagenum role to be inside of
>>>> a doc-pageheader or doc-pagefooter, but that it could optionally be.  I
>>>> don't see it as an issue to have the browser/AT combo work with either
>>>> scenario.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aaron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:53 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Clarifying it further. My example is from publishing perspective i.e.
>>>> mostly read only documents that are published.
>>>>
>>>> If we are looking at this from purely word processor perspective, then
>>>> I wonder if this is a publishing related issue?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With regards
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 17:19
>>>>
>>>> *To:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal'
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think that I am able to get the expected functionality, at the same
>>>> time I am still confused with placing page numbers in footers or headers.
>>>>
>>>> Explaining it in step wise manner
>>>>
>>>> - The text will reflow but the headers and footers are expected to
>>>> remain constant.
>>>>
>>>> - For example, if the document has footers after approximately 20 lines
>>>> and the user zooms to double size, then there will be one footer after each
>>>> 7 or 8 lines.
>>>>
>>>> - This means that page breaks will also flow down.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Now, how can one mark persistent page number inside header or footer.
>>>> In such a case the page number in footer will become reading system
>>>> responsibility which will change dynamically instead of being
>>>> responsibility of content.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If we want to have static page numbers in header or footers then it
>>>> should be a fixed layout,
>>>>
>>>> or the header / footer should also reflow when user zooms the document.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With regards
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh
>>>>
>>>> *From:* White, Jason J
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 22, 2019 1:35
>>>>
>>>> *To:* George Kerscher ; 'Aaron Leventhal' ; 'Avneesh Singh'
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ; 'Joanmarie Diggs'
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps the screen readers should offer a means of querying the
>>>> header/footer information. However, that’s outside the scope of ARIA and a
>>>> matter for each implementation. This would be especially useful in a word
>>>> processor, as the user needs to be able to read and edit it. Another option
>>>> would be a simple “go to header/footer” navigation command in the
>>>> application itself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure that I fully understand George’s question about export to
>>>> EPUB. When the text is reflowed, the pagination may change, but the
>>>> header/footer text often wouldn’t. A good example would be printing to
>>>> different page sizes or font sizes. If the text still fits, then presumably
>>>> it should simply be printed wherever the new page breaks lie after styles
>>>> are applied to the document. It’s very much the same as what happens if you
>>>> make changes to a document in a word processor. If there are no explicit
>>>> page breaks in the markup, then the page header/footer should be able to be
>>>> applied to an entire div/section of the document:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <section role=”doc-chapter”>
>>>>
>>>> <!—Applies to all pages in this section -->
>>>>
>>>> <div role=”doc-pageheader”>[…]</div>
>>>>
>>>> […]
>>>>
>>>> </section>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m not in a position to answer Aaron’s earlier question about the
>>>> schedule for specifying new ARIA features for these use cases. I think
>>>> that’s a question for the Chairs, or for a group meeting.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 12:50 PM
>>>> *To:* 'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>; 'Avneesh Singh' <
>>>> avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* 'Leonard Rosenthol' <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
>>>> jjwhite@ets.org>; public-publ-wg@w3.org; 'Joanmarie Diggs' <
>>>> jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject:* RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A few items here:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I totally agree that while creating content as in GoogleDocs, it is
>>>> perfectly fine to have running footers and Headers. Even better if I, using
>>>> my screen reader, do not need to encounter them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The export to EPUB would not put this in the reflowed content, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Page numbers are one of those things we have called “skippable”
>>>> structures. In an audio book, you may want to go to page 34 and hear that
>>>> this is page 34, but in continuous reading, you want to skip (filter is
>>>> your term) over it.  However,  It is always good to stop and find out where
>>>> you are.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Seems that this agreement.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 8:46 AM
>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>; White, Jason J <
>>>> jjwhite@ets.org>; George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>;
>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> George -- we're in agreement. This will help paginated content just
>>>> seem like one continuous document when you're reading. Basically, we're
>>>> trying to make it so that you don't see this stuff when you're word
>>>> processing unless you want to. By having the word processor (like Google
>>>> Docs) mark these up, the AT can decide to filter those things out, which
>>>> they can't do right now. See Glen Gordon's comments in the bug. This will
>>>> allow them to have similar functionality for this in Google Docs as they do
>>>> on MS word. Where are we not aligned here?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh -- DPUB is very close to being able to help us have an awesome
>>>> experience in Google Docs. Makes sense as a use case, right?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jason -- can you give an example? I think we want 2 things from the
>>>> page number -- to be able to report it when the user wants it, and to be
>>>> able to filter it out when the user just wants to read continuously
>>>> (similar to filtering out the page header).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:38 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think that the confusion comes from the design. Most of the DPUB aria
>>>> roles are from the perspective of a refloable document like HTML and EPUB
>>>> 3. On the other hand the discussion in this thread looks more oriented
>>>> towards somewhat like a fixed layout document.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With regards
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:56
>>>>
>>>> *To:* Avneesh Singh
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* Leonard Rosenthol ; White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ;
>>>> public-publ-wg@w3.org ; Joanmarie Diggs
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, I didn't realize that's where the page number would currently
>>>> go. I'm not sure it's ideal.
>>>>
>>>> <span id="pg04" role="doc-pagebreak" title="4"/>
>>>>
>>>> A page break line would likely show up as a horizontal line. Under the
>>>> horizontal line is a header, then adjacent to that comes the page number.
>>>> How would that be done in markup?
>>>>
>>>> We don't want 2 page breaks, and the page break and page number aren't
>>>> in the same place.
>>>>
>>>> <hr role="doc-pagebreak">
>>>>
>>>> <div role="doc-pageheader">
>>>>
>>>>   My header <span role="doc-pagenumber">4</span>
>>>>
>>>> </div>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Additionally, in the page break example, the page number usage is in
>>>> the title attribute, which would not be visible text. Although it's not
>>>> explained, t's not clear to me from the example or spec text that
>>>> browsers/ATs could expect a page number inside a child text node.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IMO we should have a separate role for page numbers, or put them inside
>>>> the header or footer objects, but putting them as part of the page break to
>>>> me will cause a problem with the above example.
>>>>
>>>> Aaron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM Avneesh Singh <avneesh.sg@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> doc-pagebreak already exists in DPUB aria roles for locating the page
>>>> marks. They can have a visible page number as well as invisible page number.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> With regards
>>>>
>>>> Avneesh
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal
>>>>
>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 19:12
>>>>
>>>> *To:* Leonard Rosenthol
>>>>
>>>> *Cc:* White, Jason J ; George Kerscher ; public-publ-wg@w3.org ;
>>>> Joanmarie Diggs
>>>>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Leonard, don't we want to be able to differentiate the headers
>>>> from the running headers? It's the repeated running headers that users want
>>>> to skip over.
>>>>
>>>> The headers that are part of the content seem different, like a
>>>> <header> in HTML.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In PDF, we treat page numbers as a separate thing from the
>>>> header/trailer (and yes, you can have the former inside the latter).  We
>>>> also have a “class” for bates numbers and a few other vertical-specific
>>>> elements.   We have found that it is important to be able to unique
>>>> identify them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Headers and Footers aren’t necessary tied to pages – you could have a
>>>> section with a header or footer as well, so perhaps just `doc-header` and
>>>> `doc-footer` (and `doc-pagenum`).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Leonard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>> *Date: *Wednesday, August 21, 2019 at 8:55 AM
>>>> *To: *"White, Jason J" <jjwhite@ets.org>
>>>> *Cc: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, "kerscher@montana.com" <
>>>> kerscher@montana.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>,
>>>> Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sounds good.
>>>>
>>>> - How about doc-pageheader and doc-pagefooter?
>>>>
>>>> - Possible definition: repeated section of text that appears at the
>>>> top/bottom of pages in a document, potentially containing a title, page
>>>> number or other information
>>>>
>>>> - Should the page number get its own role, e.g. doc-pagenum? Should it
>>>> exist within the doc-pageheader/doc-page-footer?
>>>>
>>>> - Should the new roles inherit from contentinfo?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 8:05 AM White, Jason J <jjwhite@ets.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> If there’s already a mapping to accessibility APIs via PDF readers,
>>>> then we could use it here too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Screen readers could offer a command to query this information, if
>>>> desired, just as there is for window titles.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>>>> *To: *George Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, 'Aaron Leventhal' <
>>>> aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org" <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 21:45
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> FWIW: Headers & Footers can be properly identified in PDFs and exposed
>>>> accordingly to AT (so that they aren’t read multiple times).  In fact,
>>>> PDF/UA (the PDF standard for Universal Accessibility) calls out their usage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Leonard
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *"kerscher@montana.com" <kerscher@montana.com>
>>>> *Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>>>> *To: *'Aaron Leventhal' <aleventhal@google.com>, "public-publ-wg@w3.org"
>>>> <public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>> *Cc: *'Joanmarie Diggs' <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject: *RE: Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>> *Resent-From: *<public-publ-wg@w3.org>
>>>> *Resent-Date: *Tuesday, August 20, 2019 at 4:35 PM
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is just my opinion. Running headers and footers are very intrusive
>>>> while reading. I encounter these many times in PDF documents. The same
>>>> information is constantly repeated. Fortunately, I do not encounter this
>>>> while reading EPUB. I can understand that it might be useful for the
>>>> Reading System to provide “where am I?” information as one is reading, but
>>>> including this over-and-over again in the content would be horrible.
>>>>
>>>> I am reading using Assistive Technology (AT) and the TTS reads to me. I
>>>> imagine this would also be painful if a person was using the read aloud
>>>> function in Reading Systems.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I could see the same problem in an audio book. Nobody would want to
>>>> hear those running heads and footers in the audio book.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My $.02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>>
>>>> George
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Aaron Leventhal <aleventhal@google.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 20, 2019 11:37 AM
>>>> *To:* public-publ-wg@w3.org
>>>> *Cc:* Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
>>>> *Subject:* Running headers/footers / new version of DPUB-ARIA?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering about the plans for doing DPUB-ARIA 2.0 as described
>>>> under the deliverables:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.w3.org/2017/04/publ-wg-charter/#deliverables
>>>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2017%2F04%2Fpubl-wg-charter%2F%23deliverables&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=PTB8VcQ%2FW8W5fG01aBOpUEjbgqKo1vPm%2FXbLtjQo3LM%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for what DPUB-ARIA provides so far. Google Docs is going to be
>>>> using it  to expose semantics for online word processing. We're
>>>> collaborating with AT vendors and other developers of online word
>>>> processors as well.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> One gap is running headers and footers:
>>>> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-aria/issues/10
>>>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fdpub-aria%2Fissues%2F10&data=02%7C01%7Cjjwhite%40ets.org%7Cba59d4f6e6f044acfd9908d726579a04%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637020030007316600&sdata=e3ypq%2B6xcsXXGoZesjzAX7dFC%2BlLIPu74KxiX0YHuVE%3D&reserved=0>
>>>> -- hence the reason for my email and status check :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for any info,
>>>>
>>>> Aaron
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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