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Re: Primary Source again (Re: PROV-ISSUE-518: Data Model Section 5.2.4 ) [prov-dm]

From: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:45:27 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|83ca87ebdebd7a0ad95422f6352cb55do8QNjR08l.moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|5064D707.1020600@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Stephan Zednik <zednis@rpi.edu>
CC: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>

Hi Stephan:

Look at the two following definitions (others are similar)

Communication ◊ is the exchange of some unspecified entity by two 
activities, one activity using some entity generated by the other.
A derivation ◊ is a transformation of an entity into another, an update 
of an entity resulting in a new one, or the construction of a new entity 
based on a pre-existing entity.

They don't state "communication is a relation ..." or "The derivation 
relation is ...".

That's what I wanted to avoid in the definition of primary source you 
suggested.

Luc

On 27/09/12 23:42, Stephan Zednik wrote:
> Luc,
>
> I am not sure I follow you here.  What is your distinction between a concept and a relation in the data model?
>
> As for Graham's proposed definition, I do not like the dual usage of 'primary source' as both a relation and the thing being related to.
>
> Like Graham I like the inclusion of the term 'relation' because I do not want to introduce confusion regarding whether primary source is a specialization of entity, but I would recommend we drop the second usage of primary source where it appears to be mentioned as a noun.
>
> [[
> A primary source relation indicates a derivation from an entity that records direct contemporaneous experience or knowledge about its topic, without the revisionary perspective of hindsight.
> ]]
>
> --Stephan
>
> On Sep 27, 2012, at 4:15 PM, Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> but this definition would not be aligned with the other, since we define the concept as opposed to the relation in a data model.
>>
>>
>> On 27/09/12 22:15, Graham Klyne wrote:
>>> Well, for starters, there's Stephan's original.  I wouldn't drop "relation" here.  Since you ask, here's my cut:
>>>
>>> [[
>>> A primary source relation indicates a derivation from a primary source.  I.e. from an entity that records direct contemporaneous experience or knowledge about its topic, without the revisionary perspective of hindsight.
>>> ]]
>>>
>>> #g
>>> -- 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27/09/2012 19:26, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>> Hi graham,
>>>> Can you make a concrete suggestion?
>>>>
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>> University of Southampton
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>
>>>> On 27 Sep 2012, at 16:27, "Graham Klyne"<GK@ninebynine.org>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I find this revision of Stephan's phrasing to be confusing, even contradictory.  "a primary source is a derivation" seems a bit oxymoronic to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> #g
>>>>> -- 
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 25/09/2012 17:57, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>> HI Stephan,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would just drop "relation" (because we define the concept) and "represents":
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A primary source is a derivation from an entity that was produced by some agent
>>>>>> with direct experience and knowledge about the entity's conceptual topic, at the
>>>>>> time of the topic's study, without benefit of hindsight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/25/2012 05:48 PM, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>>>>> How is this?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A primary source relation represents a derivation from an entity that was
>>>>>>> produced by some agent with direct experience and knowledge about the entity's
>>>>>>> conceptual topic, at the time of the topic's study, without benefit of hindsight.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --Stephan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:41 AM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> How do we address this issue?
>>>>>>>> The current definition is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Aprimary source^◊<http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#concept-primary-source> for
>>>>>>>> a topic refers to something produced by some agent with direct experience and
>>>>>>>> knowledge about the topic, at the time of the topic's study, without benefit
>>>>>>>> from hindsight.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder whether the wording 'refers to' is suitable here. We don't mean
>>>>>>>> 'is', but 'a derivation from'. Would this address the concern?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/09/2012 09:46, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-518: Data Model Section 5.2.4 [prov-dm]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/518
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/LC_Feedback#Data_Model_Section_5.2.4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ISSUE-463
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The definition of a "primary source" implies that it is an entity when in
>>>>>>>>> fact the term qualifies the role that a given entity plays during the
>>>>>>>>> creation of a new entity, not the derivation itself. This might seem to be a
>>>>>>>>> minor point, but it is clearly different from both revision and quotation,
>>>>>>>>> both of which could be used when deriving a new entity from an entity used
>>>>>>>>> as a primary source.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is also important to note that a given entity might be a primary source
>>>>>>>>> for one entity but not another ("primary source" is context-dependent).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>>>>> United Kingdomhttp://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>>>>>
>> -- 
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>
>>
>>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Thursday, 27 September 2012 22:45:57 GMT

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