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Re: Primary Source again (Re: PROV-ISSUE-518: Data Model Section 5.2.4 ) [prov-dm]

From: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 23:15:37 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|5d7c2ad1c8f99e67abe7b0b18ee9235eo8QNFc08l.moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|5064D009.1020000@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
CC: Stephan Zednik <zednis@rpi.edu>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
but this definition would not be aligned with the other, since we define 
the concept as opposed to the relation in a data model.


On 27/09/12 22:15, Graham Klyne wrote:
> Well, for starters, there's Stephan's original.  I wouldn't drop 
> "relation" here.  Since you ask, here's my cut:
>
> [[
> A primary source relation indicates a derivation from a primary 
> source.  I.e. from an entity that records direct contemporaneous 
> experience or knowledge about its topic, without the revisionary 
> perspective of hindsight.
> ]]
>
> #g
> -- 
>
>
> On 27/09/2012 19:26, Luc Moreau wrote:
>> Hi graham,
>> Can you make a concrete suggestion?
>>
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science
>> University of Southampton
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>> United Kingdom
>>
>> On 27 Sep 2012, at 16:27, "Graham Klyne"<GK@ninebynine.org>  wrote:
>>
>>> I find this revision of Stephan's phrasing to be confusing, even 
>>> contradictory.  "a primary source is a derivation" seems a bit 
>>> oxymoronic to me.
>>>
>>> #g
>>> -- 
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25/09/2012 17:57, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>> HI Stephan,
>>>>
>>>> I would just drop "relation" (because we define the concept) and 
>>>> "represents":
>>>>
>>>> A primary source is a derivation from an entity that was produced 
>>>> by some agent
>>>> with direct experience and knowledge about the entity's conceptual 
>>>> topic, at the
>>>> time of the topic's study, without benefit of hindsight.
>>>>
>>>> Luc
>>>>
>>>> On 09/25/2012 05:48 PM, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>>> How is this?
>>>>>
>>>>> A primary source relation represents a derivation from an entity 
>>>>> that was
>>>>> produced by some agent with direct experience and knowledge about 
>>>>> the entity's
>>>>> conceptual topic, at the time of the topic's study, without 
>>>>> benefit of hindsight.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Stephan
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 25, 2012, at 3:41 AM, Luc Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How do we address this issue?
>>>>>> The current definition is:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aprimary 
>>>>>> source^◊<http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#concept-primary-source> for
>>>>>> a topic refers to something produced by some agent with direct 
>>>>>> experience and
>>>>>> knowledge about the topic, at the time of the topic's study, 
>>>>>> without benefit
>>>>>> from hindsight.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wonder whether the wording 'refers to' is suitable here. We 
>>>>>> don't mean
>>>>>> 'is', but 'a derivation from'. Would this address the concern?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/09/2012 09:46, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-518: Data Model Section 5.2.4 [prov-dm]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/518
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/LC_Feedback#Data_Model_Section_5.2.4 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ISSUE-463
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The definition of a "primary source" implies that it is an 
>>>>>>> entity when in
>>>>>>> fact the term qualifies the role that a given entity plays 
>>>>>>> during the
>>>>>>> creation of a new entity, not the derivation itself. This might 
>>>>>>> seem to be a
>>>>>>> minor point, but it is clearly different from both revision and 
>>>>>>> quotation,
>>>>>>> both of which could be used when deriving a new entity from an 
>>>>>>> entity used
>>>>>>> as a primary source.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It is also important to note that a given entity might be a 
>>>>>>> primary source
>>>>>>> for one entity but not another ("primary source" is 
>>>>>>> context-dependent).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- 
>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science tel: +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>>> University of Southampton fax: +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ email:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>>> United Kingdomhttp://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>

-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Thursday, 27 September 2012 22:16:15 GMT

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