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Re: PROV-ISSUE-516: Data Model Section 5.2.1 [prov-dm]

From: Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 17:23:23 +0100
Message-ID: <CAANah+Hrb9VjaJWeM3SqKc1XPYAfD-qkPdE6J56vpyd0MZfCCQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
Cc: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
On 3 October 2012 14:48, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
> Errr... derivation is an action. It's something that happens, no....

Fair enough, khalid

>
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Khalid Belhajjame
> <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> On 3 October 2012 13:59, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>>> Hi Khalid,
>>>
>>> I don't understand your suggestion. A derivation is a transformation
>>> that is performed by an activity.
>>
>> What I meant is that the definition "Derivation is a transformation",
>> implies that derivation is "action", and that the reader may wrongly
>> infer that it is a sort of action. Hence, the suggestion is to
>> slightly reword the definition of derivation to avoid that
>>
>> khalid
>>
>> We just don't always say what
>>> activity did the transformation.
>>>
>>> regards
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Khalid Belhajjame
>>> <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I think that the confusion that the reviewer had stems from the fact
>>>> that derivation is defined as "transformation", which one may argue is
>>>> an activity.
>>>>
>>>> So, I guess we may need to slightly change the definition of
>>>> Derivation. Rather than stating "Derivation is a tranformation",
>>>> replacing with something in the lines of "Derivation is used to that
>>>> an entity was constructed by updating or ? another entity", would
>>>> address the reviewer concerns and avoid confusion.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, khalid
>>>>
>>>> On 25 September 2012 12:10, Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have drafted a response to ISSUE-516 on the wiki at:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-516_.28DerivationAsBundle.29
>>>>> It is copied below for your convenience.
>>>>>
>>>>> Feedback appreciated.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Luc
>>>>>
>>>>> ISSUE-516 (DerivationAsBundle)
>>>>>
>>>>> Original email:
>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0106.html
>>>>> Tracker: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/516
>>>>> Group Response:
>>>>>
>>>>> A derivation is not an activity, a derivation is a transformation of an
>>>>> entity to another. A derivation may be realized by one or more activities.
>>>>> If a derivation (between e2 and e1) is realized by one known activity, then
>>>>> that activity generated e2 and used e1.
>>>>> All this is formalized in the constraints document (see references).
>>>>> The reason why derivation can refer to a usage and a generation is that we
>>>>> wanted to be able to express the derivation path in full. This is particular
>>>>> important in a number of use cases, including result reproducibility.
>>>>> So, derivation is a construct that refers to two entities, an activity
>>>>> (similarly to other relations in the model) and in addition to a usage and a
>>>>> generation, by means of their identifiers. (Reminder: these identifiers
>>>>> identify entity/activity/usage/generation and not statements).
>>>>> A bundle is a set of provenance statements. (Reminder: statements do not
>>>>> have identifiers.)
>>>>> Hence, a derivation is not a bundle, it does not contain statements.
>>>>>
>>>>> References:
>>>>>
>>>>> derivation expandable parameters:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-constraints-20120911/#expandable-parameters-fig
>>>>> derivation constraint:
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-constraints-20120911/#derivation-generation-use-inference_text
>>>>>
>>>>> Original author's acknowledgement:
>>>>>
>>>>> [edit]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/09/2012 09:45, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-516: Data Model Section 5.2.1   [prov-dm]
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/516
>>>>>
>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/LC_Feedback#Data_Model_Section_5.2.1
>>>>>
>>>>> ISSUE-463
>>>>>
>>>>> See comments for 2.1.2, as well as the text that indicates that a derivation
>>>>> is an activity ("underpinning activities performing the necessary actions
>>>>> resulting in such a derivation"). However, it seems the intended concept of
>>>>> a derivation is a summary of information that describes how the creation of
>>>>> one entity was informed by another. If this is correct, is a derivation a
>>>>> type of bundle? Or would a bundle contain statement(s) regarding a
>>>>> derivation? Please clarify the relationship between these concepts.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> --
>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>>>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>>> - The Network Institute
>>> VU University Amsterdam
>
>
>
> --
> --
> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
> Assistant Professor
> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
> - The Network Institute
> VU University Amsterdam
Received on Wednesday, 3 October 2012 16:23:51 UTC

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