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Re: PROV-ISSUE-516: Data Model Section 5.2.1 [prov-dm]

From: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2012 15:48:09 +0200
Message-ID: <CAJCyKRrmBMjf=2R0O8p_jR4K-=m6_NGQ-Zcj_a6tV0fbBnyRbA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>
Cc: Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Errr... derivation is an action. It's something that happens, no....

Paul

On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Khalid Belhajjame
<Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
> Hi Paul,
>
> On 3 October 2012 13:59, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
>> Hi Khalid,
>>
>> I don't understand your suggestion. A derivation is a transformation
>> that is performed by an activity.
>
> What I meant is that the definition "Derivation is a transformation",
> implies that derivation is "action", and that the reader may wrongly
> infer that it is a sort of action. Hence, the suggestion is to
> slightly reword the definition of derivation to avoid that
>
> khalid
>
> We just don't always say what
>> activity did the transformation.
>>
>> regards
>> Paul
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 3, 2012 at 2:18 PM, Khalid Belhajjame
>> <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I think that the confusion that the reviewer had stems from the fact
>>> that derivation is defined as "transformation", which one may argue is
>>> an activity.
>>>
>>> So, I guess we may need to slightly change the definition of
>>> Derivation. Rather than stating "Derivation is a tranformation",
>>> replacing with something in the lines of "Derivation is used to that
>>> an entity was constructed by updating or ? another entity", would
>>> address the reviewer concerns and avoid confusion.
>>>
>>> Thanks, khalid
>>>
>>> On 25 September 2012 12:10, Luc Moreau <l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I have drafted a response to ISSUE-516 on the wiki at:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-516_.28DerivationAsBundle.29
>>>> It is copied below for your convenience.
>>>>
>>>> Feedback appreciated.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Luc
>>>>
>>>> ISSUE-516 (DerivationAsBundle)
>>>>
>>>> Original email:
>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Sep/0106.html
>>>> Tracker: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/516
>>>> Group Response:
>>>>
>>>> A derivation is not an activity, a derivation is a transformation of an
>>>> entity to another. A derivation may be realized by one or more activities.
>>>> If a derivation (between e2 and e1) is realized by one known activity, then
>>>> that activity generated e2 and used e1.
>>>> All this is formalized in the constraints document (see references).
>>>> The reason why derivation can refer to a usage and a generation is that we
>>>> wanted to be able to express the derivation path in full. This is particular
>>>> important in a number of use cases, including result reproducibility.
>>>> So, derivation is a construct that refers to two entities, an activity
>>>> (similarly to other relations in the model) and in addition to a usage and a
>>>> generation, by means of their identifiers. (Reminder: these identifiers
>>>> identify entity/activity/usage/generation and not statements).
>>>> A bundle is a set of provenance statements. (Reminder: statements do not
>>>> have identifiers.)
>>>> Hence, a derivation is not a bundle, it does not contain statements.
>>>>
>>>> References:
>>>>
>>>> derivation expandable parameters:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-constraints-20120911/#expandable-parameters-fig
>>>> derivation constraint:
>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-constraints-20120911/#derivation-generation-use-inference_text
>>>>
>>>> Original author's acknowledgement:
>>>>
>>>> [edit]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 10/09/2012 09:45, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>
>>>> PROV-ISSUE-516: Data Model Section 5.2.1   [prov-dm]
>>>>
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/516
>>>>
>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/LC_Feedback#Data_Model_Section_5.2.1
>>>>
>>>> ISSUE-463
>>>>
>>>> See comments for 2.1.2, as well as the text that indicates that a derivation
>>>> is an activity ("underpinning activities performing the necessary actions
>>>> resulting in such a derivation"). However, it seems the intended concept of
>>>> a derivation is a summary of information that describes how the creation of
>>>> one entity was informed by another. If this is correct, is a derivation a
>>>> type of bundle? Or would a bundle contain statement(s) regarding a
>>>> derivation? Please clarify the relationship between these concepts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> Assistant Professor
>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>>   Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>> - The Network Institute
>> VU University Amsterdam



-- 
--
Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
Assistant Professor
- Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
  Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
- The Network Institute
VU University Amsterdam
Received on Wednesday, 3 October 2012 13:48:41 UTC

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