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Re: PROV-ISSUE-479: cite TriG for examples [Ontology]

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2012 14:50:52 -0500
Cc: Graham Klyne <graham.klyne@zoo.ox.ac.uk>, Provenance Working Group <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <7D33FF4C-E820-47FD-9641-421BE2914BB1@w3.org>
To: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>

On Nov 5, 2012, at 11:23 , Timothy Lebo wrote:

> Graham,
> 
> You raised issue 479 and in response the prov-o team:
> 
> * removed the use of TriG in examples where possible and 
> * added the following statement to the beginning of the cross reference section:
> 
> [[
> "Most examples shown in this cross reference are encoded using the Turtle RDF serialization. When an example requires a prov:Bundle, it may use the [TRIG] syntax. Although this document does not specify how to encode Bundles in RDF, TriG's named graph construct is used only to illustrate the concept."
> ]]
> 
> The following informative reference is also provided:
> 
> [TRIG]
> Henry S. Thompson; et al. The TriG Syntax. modified 30 July 2007, accessed November 05 2012 URL: http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/trig/
> 

s/Henry S. Thompson/Chris Bizer and Richard Cyganiak/

Note that a FPWD for TriG might be published by the RDF WG before the end of June; because this is a non-normative reference, it will be o.k. refer to that one I presume...

Ivan



> 
> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-479_.28citing_Trig.29
> 
> Could you let us know if that satisfies your concern?
> 
> Regards,
> Tim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sep 12, 2012, at 5:28 AM, Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl> wrote:
> 
>> I think I forgot my periods.
>> 
>> It should be
>> 
>> <>  a prov:Bundle;
>> prov:generatedAtTime "2012-05-24T10:30:00"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>   prov:wasAttributedTo :Bob.
>> 
>> my:report1
>>   a my:Report, prov:Entity.
>> 
>> So there are no quads.
>> 
>> The <> refers to the document (or base url).
>> 
>> So maybe for all clarity we should ensure that the base url is clearly
>> a document eg. http://www.example.com/example.ttl
>> 
>> What your doing is just saying that the current document is a bundle.
>> 
>> cheers
>> Paul
>> 
>> On Wed, Sep 12, 2012 at 1:46 AM, Satya Sahoo <satya.sahoo@case.edu> wrote:
>>> Hi Paul and Ivan,
>>> Thanks for the responses!
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> I would suggest the following for modifying the example:
>>>> 
>>>> ## A provenance file located a http://example.com/provbundle1
>>>> 
>>>> @base:     <http://example.com/provbundle1> .
>>>> @prefix my:      <http://example.com/my#> .
>>>> @prefix prov:    <http://www.w3.org/ns/prov#> .
>>>> 
>>>> <>  a prov:Bundle;
>>>>  prov:generatedAtTime "2012-05-24T10:30:00"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>>>  prov:wasAttributedTo :Bob;
>>>> 
>>>> my:report1
>>>> a my:Report, prov:Entity;
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I may be missing something, but I interpret the above example as:
>>> 1. <> my:report1 a my:Report . and <> my:report1 a prov:Entity. - are quads
>>> instead of triples?
>>> 
>>> Did you mean to have an explicit predicate linking statements (reports) to
>>> the bundle
>>> 
>>> <bundle1>
>>>  a prov:Bundle ;
>>>  <contains> my:report1, my:report2 ;
>>>  prov:generatedAtTime "2012-05-24T10:30:00"^^xsd:dateTime .
>>> 
>>> with rest of the statements from your example following?
>>> 
>>> ("contains" being a locally defined predicate.)
>>> 
>>> or both bundle1 and report1 to be bundles? - in that case both would be same
>>> as any other entity?
>>> 
>>> Thanks.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Satya
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> my:version "1";
>>>> prov:generatedAtTime "2012-05-24T10:00:01"^^xsd:dateTime;
>>>> .
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> If you want to get really fancy, you can switch the bases in the
>>>> middle of the example to talk about multiple files (i.e. bundles).
>>>> 
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Paul
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 11 Sep 2012, at 02:53, Satya Sahoo <satya.sahoo@case.edu> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>> I am following up on this issue for prov-o.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I looked up the turtle WD http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/ and could not
>>>>> find an
>>>>> appropriate construct for representing a prov bundle. Trig seems to be
>>>>> only
>>>>> way to represent a RDF named graph, unless we want to use a blank node
>>>>> for a
>>>>> bundle (http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#unlabeled-bnodes)? The RDF WG also
>>>>> seems to be still discussing the issue
>>>>> (http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-rdf11-concepts-20120605/#section-dataset).
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hence, do we resolve this issue by referring to Trig explicitly in the
>>>>> prov-o document (for now)?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think the idea was *not* to refer TriG explicitly and, as Paul
>>>>> suggests,
>>>>> use different (Turtle) documents for the bundles for now. TriG is
>>>>> especially
>>>>> problematic as a reference: there are references that the community uses
>>>>> here and there and which do not even exist any more:-(
>>>>> 
>>>>> That being said, the RDF WG may be in a better shape than we look to the
>>>>> outside, and it is not impossible that a TriG document will be published
>>>>> before the end of the year. Ie, we may make the editorial change of
>>>>> using
>>>>> TriG later in the process (the examples are non normative anyway). We
>>>>> should
>>>>> go for the safe option in my view, which is Paul's proposal in my view.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ivan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Satya
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 29, 2012 at 5:31 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If we can do that, it would certainly be fool proof for now...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ivan
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Aug 29, 2012, at 10:56 , Paul Groth wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi All,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For this issue, I wonder if the best approach would be to give
>>>>>>> examples of bundles that don't use trig. Then, we would be turtle
>>>>>>> compatible and wouldn't have confusion when whatever extended syntax
>>>>>>> comes out.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> We can just show it as two separate documents.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 11:48 AM, Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2012, at 20:21 , Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-479: cite TriG for examples [Ontology]
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/479
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Raised by: Timothy Lebo
>>>>>>>>> On product: Ontology
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The syntax used in the examples should be mentioned (it is TriG
>>>>>>>>> http://www4.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/bizer/trig/).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Per Graham in email
>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/mid/5023A271.90500@ninebynine.org :
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Ref: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-o-20120724/
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Currently, I'm posing this as a question I need to understand
>>>>>>>>> order
>>>>>>>>> to reason coherently about aspects of provenance expressed in RDF,
>>>>>>>>> but I may
>>>>>>>>> also raise it as a formal issue.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I can't see a specification or citation for the syntax used for
>>>>>>>>> examples in PROV-O.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> This may seem like a trivial point, but I think it's a serious
>>>>>>>>> omission.  In particular, I'm trying to interpret how the mentionOf
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> bundle structure plays out when represented in RDF and, while I can
>>>>>>>>> make
>>>>>>>>> guesses, that's not a sound basis for interpretation.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Most of the examples appear to conform with Turtle
>>>>>>>>> (http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/), but there are some
>>>>>>>>> (e.g.
>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-prov-o-20120724/#Bundle) that do not.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> As I put in one of my earlier comments, it is probably wise to refer
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the current RDF WG Working Draft, too, in the references:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Turtle is currently in Last Call. It may not win the race and become
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> Rec before Prov does, but citing it at least as a work in progress
>>>>>>>> makes a
>>>>>>>> lot of sense. (And, who knows, Turtle might become Rec earlier.)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The TriG stuff is clearly not yet there and therefore the ...#Bundle
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> indeed illegal syntax.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Because such examples given go beyond the current structure
>>>>>>>>> expressible as an RDF graph, I think some explanation should be
>>>>>>>>> provided
>>>>>>>>> about how these should be interpreted as RDF.  (E.g. "<id> {
>>>>>>>>> <turtle
>>>>>>>>> expression> }" could be presented as an RDF document on the web at
>>>>>>>>> URI
>>>>>>>>> "<id>".  If this reflects what is intended, then I think some
>>>>>>>>> further
>>>>>>>>> comment is needed about when it is valid to merge these graphs, or
>>>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>>>> kinds of cross-bundle inferences are possible, because the PROV-O
>>>>>>>>> ontology
>>>>>>>>> alone can't express any of that.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I am not sure it is worth going down that route. For those one or
>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>> examples I think, for the time being, referring to TriG should be
>>>>>>>> fine. I
>>>>>>>> cannot predict whether the RDF WG may come up with a syntax in time;
>>>>>>>> I would
>>>>>>>> not bet on it...
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ivan
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> (Most of this "processing model" concern goes away if we drop
>>>>>>>>> mentionOf.  But in order to understand how mentionOf plays out in
>>>>>>>>> the RDF
>>>>>>>>> representation of provenance, as described by the OWL ontology, I
>>>>>>>>> need to
>>>>>>>>> understand these details.)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> #g
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ----
>>>>>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>>>>>>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>>>>>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>>>>>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>>>>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>>>>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>>>>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>>>>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>>>>>>> - The Network Institute
>>>>>>> VU University Amsterdam
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ----
>>>>>> Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
>>>>>> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>>>>>> mobile: +31-641044153
>>>>>> FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> --
>>>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>>>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>>>> Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>>>> - The Network Institute
>>>> VU University Amsterdam
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> --
>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> Assistant Professor
>> - Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group |
>> Artificial Intelligence Section | Department of Computer Science
>> - The Network Institute
>> VU University Amsterdam
>> 
>> 
> 
> 


----
Ivan Herman, W3C Semantic Web Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
FOAF: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf.rdf
Received on Wednesday, 7 November 2012 19:51:20 GMT

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