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Re: PROV-ISSUE-89 (what-entity-attributes): How do we find the attributes of an entity? [Formal Model]

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 May 2012 15:54:14 +0000
To: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
CC: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <EMEW3|49716a76dff0abb09a8aa80bfde26f1bo46GsH08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|C46C8170-DAA6-4F07-B7F8-ED6F0F6885A2@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Go ahead, close this issue. Given the way proper provenance has evolved, I don't think a new issue is required.

Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science
University of Southampton
Southampton SO17 1BJ
United Kingdom


On 7 May 2012, at 16:43, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:

> Luc,
> 
> On May 7, 2012, at 11:37 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
> 
>> It's a very old issue.
> 
> Yes :-)
> 
>> I thought it was agreed that all properties (which dont encode relations) of an entity would be regarded as attributes.
> 
> Yes, I believe this was the resolution.
> I think this issue can be closed.
> 
> However, you morphed this issue into a note about "proper" provenance (in March).
> So may I ask that you open a new issue for that concern, so that I can close this?
> 
> Thanks,
> Tim
> 
>> 
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science
>> University of Southampton
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>> United Kingdom
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 May 2012, at 16:30, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> Luc,
>>> 
>>> I'm looking to close this issue.
>>> 
>>> "proper" provenance is not part of the current prov-o WD.
>>> 
>>> As you know, the building story in prov-o is "starting points, expanded, qualified" and then "collections".
>>> 
>>> Since the notion of "proper" has evolved since F2F2, could you summarize what aspects you think should still be addressed in prov-o?
>>> For me, the notion of proper hinges around specOf, where "improper" asserters assert details on less specific entities than they should.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tim
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mar 5, 2012, at 5:14 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>> 
>>>> I think that somewhere in the prov-o html document, there should be a section
>>>> that talks about "proper" provenance (or whatever its name is), and discusses attributes.
>>>> So, as long as we remember to discuss this, I think we can close the issue.
>>>> 
>>>> Luc
>>>> 
>>>> On 05/03/12 22:06, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 5, 2012, at 4:42 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Indeed, we no longer make the distinction between characterizing and non-characterizing attributes.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> In "proper" provenance, attributes are still very important, since they help describe a "partial state".
>>>>>> Hence, some constraints exist around attributes:
>>>>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm-constraints.html#account-and-accountEntity
>>>>>> (For instance, see 3rd bullet point).
>>>>>> 
>>>>> Yes, the 3rd bullet and "It is not permitted to add new attributes to a given entity" in the note.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> But I think we came to the conclusion that any rdf property for an entity is regarded as an attribute.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Isn't it the answer to this issue?
>>>>>> 
>>>>> I hope that it is. I am comfortable with the phrasing in the DM.
>>>>> Any rdf property outside of the prov namespace that describes and Entity is "fixed".
>>>>> (as you noted, we can "use" it again, so that would make a new attribute within the prov namespace but that did not affect the partial state.)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Does this mean we can close the issue? Do we need the DM to say something further in light of this ISSUE?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> -Tim
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 05/03/12 19:13, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Luc,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The distinction between characterizing attributes and non-characterizing attributes has faded in the latest versions of the DM.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Do you still have concerns about being able to find "frozen" attributes for a given entity?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sep 2, 2011, at 4:52 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-89 (what-entity-attributes): How do we find the attributes of an entity? [Formal Model]
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/89
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>> On product: Formal Model
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The conceptual model defines an entity in terms of an identifier and a list of attribute-value pairs. It is indeed crucial for the asserter to identify the attributes that have been frozen in a given entity.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Currently, the ontology does not seem to identify these attributes.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> To say that these attributes could be found by looking at all the properties for this entity does not work with an open world assumption.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> What mechanism do we have to identify these attributes?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
Received on Monday, 7 May 2012 15:54:47 GMT

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