- From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
- Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2012 21:51:10 +0100
- To: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
- CC: "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <EMEW3|e5e57c1b1122dfcf1b4dce9951ddb803o55LpJ08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4FCFC2BE>
Hi Tim,
Comment below.
On 06/06/12 20:53, Timothy Lebo wrote:
> Luc,
>
> On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:37 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>> Hi Tim,
>>
>> It's not about a trade-off data model vs reasoning, it's about
>> defining a data structure
>> that makes sense.
>
> I'm in.
>
>>
>> I would argue that you are not defining a collection of entities but
>> a collection of uris.
>
> In prov-o, one uses URIs to talk about entities. The URI is a semiotic
> symbol for the referent.
> In prov-n, one uses Value to talk about entities. Those strings are
> also semiotic symbols for the referent.
It's incorrect. In the following:
derivedByInsertionFrom(d1, d0, {("k1", e1), ("k2", e2)})
One uses Value to have a computable index (by computable, I mean given
two values v1 and v2, you can
decide whether v1=v2 or not) and we used qualified names to denote entities.
>
> When I assert the following prov-o, I am saying that a big ol' bag of
> flesh-n-bones, covered in a robe and gray hair, is a member of today's
> supreme court.
> John is -- not his URI. I could call him right now on the phone. I'm
> not putting some text file or web page into a set. I picked him up and
> set him upon the bench.
> This is symbols and referents.
>
> I am defining a set of entities.
>
> 21 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l21> :todays-us-supreme-court
> 35 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l35> prov:hadMember # These would be asserted on a simple (first step)
>
> 36 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l36> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/John_Glover_Roberts,_Jr.>,
>
>
>
I know that's what you want to do, but I don't think that in practice,
that's what you have
defined because I can't decide equality of entities from entity identifiers.
>
>> That's exactly why we introduced keys in prov dictionaries, so that
>> we could decide
>> whether something is in dictionary or not.
>
> Meanwhile, Stian is agreeing [1] with those against his own
> CompleteCollection, saying that even with the completeness "boolean",
> he wouldn't really know if it was complete.
> And if it's not complete, then we can't satisfy your "so that we could
> decide whether something is in dictionary or not", since a new _key_
> could come along.
> The problem was just displaced one level, and can't be solved in that
> fashion.
>
> I'm wondering what outstanding issue is in this thread.
> Is it that you do not want to have a
>
> prov:hadMember with domain Collection and range Entity,
>
> and instead restrain it to:
>
> prov:hadMember with domain Dictionary and range KeyValuePair
>
> ?
>
> I advocate the former, and think that you want the latter.
Correct.
>
> Regards,
> Tim
>
>
> [1]
> http://www.w3.org/mid/CAPRnXtm52YzmjmpO4=Cx+q0um+UMpNdwMdjS68XjMhBmDi1pYQ@mail.gmail.com
>
>
Luc
>>
>> Professor Luc Moreau
>> Electronics and Computer Science
>> University of Southampton
>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>> United Kingdom
>>
>> On 6 Jun 2012, at 20:22, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 6, 2012, at 3:05 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>
>>>> Whats the matter?
>>>>
>>>> If you have one entity denoted by two different URIs, and the
>>>> following assertion:
>>>>
>>>>> :collection
>>>>> a prov:Collection;
>>>>> prov:hadMember :myMember;
>>>
>>> Then I know that one of them is in, and am not sure about the other one.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> How are you able to decide if the entity denoted by:myMember-alias
>>>> is also member of the collection?
>>>
>>> Why is identity resolution a requirement for simply saying that
>>> something is in a set?
>>> That's an awfully tall order.
>>>
>>> Impossible, even.
>>> Since I can mint a URI and make it the same as any of your members's
>>> URIs and never tell you about my URI.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why are we back to choosing when reasoning applies to DM, and when
>>> DM just gets to be a data model?
>>> Am I getting confused?
>>>
>>> -Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>> University of Southampton
>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>
>>>> On 6 Jun 2012, at 14:49, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Luc,
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 6, 2012, at 12:46 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 23:01, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:55 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sure, but we said we would just define a collection type for
>>>>>>>> extensibility, and nothing else.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes. But with no way to put something into it?
>>>>>>> "Thanks for the canoe, W3C… can I have a paddle?"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then, we should drop the type Collection entirely.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I have to choose a memberless Collection and no Collection at
>>>>> all, I'd choose a memberless Collection.
>>>>>> membership of entities is not clear,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it is clear, using:
>>>>>
>>>>> :collection
>>>>> a prov:Collection;
>>>>> prov:hadMember :myMember;
>>>>> .
>>>>> :myMember a prov:Entity .
>>>>>
>>>>> Done!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> since we don't have
>>>>>> a predicate to decide whether two entities are equal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Why does this matter?
>>>>> Are you trying to fulfill a notion of "complete collection".
>>>>> If so, why?
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Furthermore, why not insertion and removal relations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (… and Membership)
>>>>>
>>>>> Because it's beyond scope, as the WG agreed during the rename to
>>>>> Dictionary.
>>>>> We agreed to provide the "harder" Dictionary and let those
>>>>> operations and qualifications to an extension.
>>>>> We also agreed to include the name of the "abstract" collection.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the latest PROV-O, prov:Dictionary reuses the prov:hadMember
>>>>> that could also be used for simple Collections.
>>>>> The latest PROV-O prov:Dictionary is a cheap win, I don't see the
>>>>> reason to go out of our way to prevent people from using or
>>>>> extending Collection.
>>>>> And, the focus is clearly on prov:Dictionary, as we agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the rest would be dictionary specific.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, all of the meat would be Dictionary specific.
>>>>>>> Insertion and Removal and Membership are Dictionary specific.
>>>>>>> That's fine.
>>>>>>> I'm having all of that reuse the Collection's hadMember.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (new OWL is up, I'm putting the HTML up now).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:39, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:34 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The only membership defined in dm is:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Membership
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#concept-membership>
>>>>>>>>>> memberOf(c, {(key_1, e_1), ..., (key_n, e_n)})
>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#dfn-memberof>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Why should we define membership on collections?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because we defined Collection?
>>>>>>>>> "A collection is an entity that provides a structure to some
>>>>>>>>> constituents, which are themselves entities. These
>>>>>>>>> constituents are said to be member of the collections. "
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-dm.html#term-collection
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:29, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:26 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dictionary keys can be compared. Hence, after insertion and
>>>>>>>>>>>> removal, we can always determine a new dictionary state if
>>>>>>>>>>>> we knew the state before operation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> okay. But why should that prevent someone from asserting
>>>>>>>>>>> that an Entity is a member of a Collection?
>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like your "we can't assume reasoning/inference; it's
>>>>>>>>>>> a data model" argument applies here (this time, against your
>>>>>>>>>>> position).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>>>>>>>> University of Southampton
>>>>>>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>>>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 5 Jun 2012, at 22:11, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:lebot@rpi.edu>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 5, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your example.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is not valid according to prov-dm:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prov:hadMember # These would be asserted on a simple (first step)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 36 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l36> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/John_Glover_Roberts,_Jr.>, # prov:Collection.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 37 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l37> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Antonin_Scalia>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 38 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l38> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Anthony_Kennedy>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 39 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l39> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Clarence_Thomas>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 40 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l40> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Ruth_Bader_Ginsburg>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 41 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l41> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Stephen_Breyer>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 42 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l42> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Samuel_Alito>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 43 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l43> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Sonia_Sotomayor>, #
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 44 <http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/file/tip/examples/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership/rdf/eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership.ttl#l44> <http://dbpedia.org/resource/Elena_Kagan>;
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The key reason why we went for a dictionary and, say, a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> set of entities,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is that we are unable to decide whether an entity belongs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to a set on the basis of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its urls (since the same entity may be denoted by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> multiple urls).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> huh? Why does that matter? In that case, we wouldn't be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> able to do it for Dictionaries, either.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 05/06/2012 06:25, Timothy Lebo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prov-wg,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I tried my hand at modeling the provenance of the U.S. Supreme Court's current membership, and its derivation to it's first membership.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wiki page for the example is at:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Eg-34-us-supreme-court-membership
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In an attempt to take a fresh look at how we're modeling dictionaries (and collections?), I didn't reference PROV-DM, PROV-O, or any other examples or documentation -- I just tried to describe the subject matter.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How does it look?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd like to move PROV-O (and DM, if it needs tweaking) towards this kind of modeling and naming.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Discussion and feedback encouraged.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later today, I'll try to start from scratch on the DM and work through the current PROV-O modeling, and then the recent threads on this topic.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I hope by then we can converge on a satisfactory design.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 6 June 2012 20:51:56 UTC