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Re: quick comment on Note in ProvRDF mapping

From: Timothy Lebo <lebot@rpi.edu>
Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:06:23 -0500
Cc: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>, Daniel Garijo <dgarijo@delicias.dia.fi.upm.es>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <85E61A5E-6A7E-4AA1-8725-4AB3D270E08F@rpi.edu>
To: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>



On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:48 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:

> Hi Tim,
> 
> That information is added by a third party reasoning engine,
> to an existing provenance trace.


Isn't that what provenance bundles are for?

:their_original_bundle {

   agent(ex:Simon)
   agent(ex:Paolo)
   wasAttributedTo(:article,ex:Simon)
   wasAttributedTo(:article,ex:Paolo)
   entity(:article, [dct:title="Towards Provenance"])
}

:their_original_bundle prov:wasAttributedTo :Luc .

:my_new_bundle prov:wasAttributedTo :Tim .


:my_new_bundle {
   agent(ex:Simon,[ex:reputation:"excellent"])  # same namespace reused on purpose - b/c I'm talking about the same agent as 
   agent(ex:Paolo,[ex:reputation:"excellent"])
}


-Tim



> 
> I realise now I should have used separate namespaces ex and ex2
> 
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science
> University of Southampton
> Southampton SO17 1BJ
> United Kingdom
> 
> 
> On 14 Feb 2012, at 13:38, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:
> 
>> Luc,
>> Thanks for the example. How is what you assert:
>> note(ex:n2,[ex:reputation:"excellent"])
>> hasAnnotation(ex:Simon,ex:n2)
>> hasAnnotation(ex:Paolo,ex:n2)
>> 
>> different from:
>> agent(ex:Simon,[ex:reputation:"excellent"])
>> agent(ex:Simon,[ex:reputation:"excellent"])
>> 
>> Regards,
>> Tim
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:19 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Tim,
>>> 
>>> What about this example in our working copy?
>>> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/towards-wd4.html#term-note
>>> 
>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>> University of Southampton 
>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>> United Kingdom
>>> 
>>> On 14 Feb 2012, at 01:10, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Luc,
>>>> 
>>>> I'm glad to see that the trust annotation is still mentioned in DM, but I'm looking for an actual example of how Notes would be used in this manner.
>>>> It also mentions "visual representations" and gives two or three examples throughout the DM, which leads me to think that the primary intent of Notes is to sneak instructions to the visual layer.
>>>> 
>>>> If there are more compelling uses of Notes, I think an illustrative example would be very helpful.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Tim
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Feb 13, 2012, at 5:12 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Correction: introduction of section 5.2.4 [1] mentions trust service.
>>>>> 
>>>>> [1] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html#record-note
>>>>> 
>>>>> Luc
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 02/13/2012 06:02 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>> Sorry, I thought you meant motivation in general, as opposed to in the text.
>>>>>> This can be added if it helps the case.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>> University of Southampton 
>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 13 Feb 2012, at 01:12, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Luc,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I can only find Note examples with visual styling ("dotted", "icons", etc).
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Is there a "trust" Note example somewhere?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2012, at 5:29 PM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Hi Tim,
>>>>>>>> Yes we use such notes to also propagate "trust" information
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science
>>>>>>>> University of Southampton 
>>>>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ
>>>>>>>> United Kingdom
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 12 Feb 2012, at 20:54, "Timothy Lebo" <lebot@rpi.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Is there motivation for Notes other than to sneak messages to the visual layer?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> note(ann1,[ex:color="blue", ex:screenX=20, ex:screenY=30])
>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that this is simply data modeling and NOT provenance modeling.
>>>>>>>>> If it is _only_ data modeling, I think that it should stay out of PROV, which should focus on modeling only provenance.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Underneath the surface of Notes is the age old debate of "characterizing attributes" versus "non-characterizing attributes".
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -Tim
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2012, at 3:35 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Of course you can use constructs however you want. I don't think Note was intended as such so it seems that discussing this usage would be out of scope. 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Why confuse potential adopters of the spec?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2012, at 21:15, Daniel Garijo <dgarijo@delicias.dia.fi.upm.es> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There was some discussion on the prov-o team about this. "Note" could be used for describing provenance
>>>>>>>>>>> statements in an informal way with custom annotations.
>>>>>>>>>>> Therefore, IMO some people could use it for metadata provenance even if that is not the intention on DM.
>>>>>>>>>>> For example: I could add annotations about all the usages (since the note is about a record) stating who is the author
>>>>>>>>>>> of that assertion.
>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 2012/2/12 Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> I was just having a look through the ProvRDF mappings page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvRDF
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> In the Note section there is a concern "but NOT for the much heavier-duty use that DM offers (meta-provenance)."
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The DM does not use Note for meta provenance so I don't know where this is coming from.
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Professor Luc Moreau               
>>>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487         
>>>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865         
>>>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk  
>>>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>> 
>> 
Received on Tuesday, 14 February 2012 14:13:29 GMT

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