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Re: PROV-ISSUE-370 (tracedTo-inference-only): Should tracedTo be moved to prov-constraints and be defined as a binary relation that can be inferred [prov-dm]

From: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:48:00 +0200
Message-ID: <182E7D55-CF2C-4BC3-9D70-BD45D6B927F2@vu.nl>
CC: "Groth, P.T." <p.t.groth@vu.nl>, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
To: James Cheney <jcheney@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Err ... I wasn't suggesting that this be part of the standard. I thought Luc was asking where I would use an asserted tracedto edge and this is my use case.

It's nice to have an edge that I know will be treated as transitive by other systems and it's nice to be able to put attributes on it.


Paul

On Apr 30, 2012, at 13:48, James Cheney <jcheney@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

> The potential problem with this is that such an assertion could correspond to many different actual situations.  So, if I send you a PROV instance that says
> 
> tracedTo(foo,bar,[confidence=0.5])
> 
> and nothing else, what does this mean?  Is it legal to just say tracedTo on its own?  What constraints or inferences apply?
> 
> This seems to be a way of expressing metadata/beliefs about provenance data, rather than expressing the data itself.  One could do this as an overlay on PROV without requiring everyone that uses PROV to support it, I think.
> 
> --James
> 
> On Apr 30, 2012, at 12:31 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
> 
>> My concrete use case would be to put things like confidence values on
>> these links. For example, in one of our systems we "guess" if there is
>> a tracedto and what to put some confidence value on that link. This is
>> one of the reasons I like attributes in the model.
>> 
>> We could do this with derivation so it's not a big deal but the nice
>> thing is that traced to is transitive...
>> 
>> cheers
>> Paul
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:26 PM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi Paul,
>>> 
>>> Do you have a concrete use case, in particular, with attributes?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Luc
>>> 
>>> On 04/30/2012 12:17 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>> I think traced-to is useful to sometime assert especially in the case
>>>> where you want to be very vague about provenance. It's also nice to
>>>> have attributes so that you can associate other sorts of information
>>>> with it.
>>>> 
>>>> However, if others think it's nicer to be inference only then I won't
>>>> be stand in the way.
>>>> 
>>>> cheers
>>>> Paul
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue
>>>> Tracker<sysbot+tracker@w3.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-370 (tracedTo-inference-only): Should tracedTo be moved to prov-constraints and be defined as a binary relation that can be inferred [prov-dm]
>>>>> 
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/370
>>>>> 
>>>>> Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>> On product: prov-dm
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> TracedTo was introduced in the data model so as to have a transitive relation over derivations, etc. It can be inferred. In contrast, its definition as an assertion was not very compelling. In the latest version of prov-constraints, it is only defined as something that can be inferred.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Really, it looks like a relation that is useful to express queries.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So, in the spirit of simplification, should we move it out of prov-dm, and have it defined in prov-constraints only.
>>>>> 
>>>>> At the same time, it could be simplified to a binary relation, since we have no way of inferring attributes for this relation.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> --
>> Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
>> http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth/
>> Assistant Professor
>> Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group
>> Artificial Intelligence Section
>> Department of Computer Science
>> VU University Amsterdam
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
> 
Received on Monday, 30 April 2012 13:48:36 GMT

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