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Re: definition of derivation?

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 08:21:37 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|222d0a89a07d182e31d8c62a138682aan5S8Lj08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4E0AD281.5090007@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Hi Satya,

I would not replace, but add it to the definition:

Derivation represents how stuff is transformed from, created from, or
affected by other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the
values of some invariant properties of B are at least partially
determined by the values of some invariant properties of A.

Luc

On 06/29/2011 02:16 AM, Satya Sahoo wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I broadly agree with Luc and Simon's definition, except I would 
> replace /affected/ with /created from/, since a thing X may be 
> affected by thing Y, but X may not be derived from Y. For example, 
> cold temperature affects plant X, but plant X is not derived from cold 
> temperature.
>
> Modified definition: "Derivation represents how stuff is transformed 
> from or created from other stuff."
>
> Also, would like to point to the both the "derived from" and 
> "transformation of" properties defined by the OBO Foundry Relation 
> ontology [1], which is widely used in biomedical ontologies.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Best,
> Satya
>
> [1] http://www.obofoundry.org/ro/
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 9:31 AM, Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org 
> <mailto:GK@ninebynine.org>> wrote:
>
>     I prefer Simon's formulation.  A concern I had with the previous
>     form was its dependence on a temporal element.  That temporal
>     dependence may be a consequence, but I don't think it should be
>     part of the definition.
>
>     #g
>     -- 
>
>
>
>     Simon Miles wrote:
>
>         Paul, Luc,
>
>         I'm OK with the definition, but I think it could be simplified and
>         clarified a little, and suggest:
>
>         Derivation represents how stuff is transformed from or affected by
>         other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values
>         of some
>         invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the
>         values of some invariant properties of A.
>
>         The reasons for this proposed revision:
>
>         1. "A was used (and therefore created) before B was created"
>         means the
>         definition of "derivation" is based on those for "use" and
>         "generation". This property seems, in practice, necessitated by B
>         having been determined by A anyway.
>
>         2. The first sentence mixes plural with singular, so it is
>         unclear how
>         many things a derivation relates.
>
>         3. The "in the real world" caveat seems unnecessary if
>         "things" are
>         defined to be explicitly about the real world. Moreover, if we
>         decide
>         to revise the definition of "thing" to cover more than the
>         real world,
>         then derivation would also have to be revised.
>
>         Thanks,
>         Simon
>
>         On 20 June 2011 21:07, Paul Groth <pgroth@gmail.com
>         <mailto:pgroth@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>             Hi All,
>
>             What do people think of Luc's definition of derivation:
>
>             - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov
>             /wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc_.28in_terms_of_properties.29
>             Things represent stuff in the real-world.
>
>             Definition of Derivation. A derivation represents how
>             stuffs are
>             transformed or affect each other in the real world.
>
>             A thing B is derived from a thing A if:
>
>             A was used (and therefore created) before B was created
>             The values of some invariant properties of B are partially
>             determined by
>             the values of some invariant properties of A
>
>             James you seemed to suggest another way to define
>             derivation or not
>             define it all? Can you be more specific?
>
>
>             Thanks,
>             Paul
>
>
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-- 
Professor Luc Moreau
Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
Received on Wednesday, 29 June 2011 07:22:13 GMT

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