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Re: definition of derivation?

From: Simon Miles <simon.miles@kcl.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 15:21:45 +0100
Message-ID: <BANLkTikOqQbTrcrU2mwmES-+Vd=udJcV2w@mail.gmail.com>
To: Provenance Working Group WG <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Luc,

OK, thanks, I've added my revision of the definition to the Wiki page
as suggested.

Thanks,
Simon

On 21 June 2011 14:52, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> Some quick comments.
>
> On 06/21/2011 01:31 PM, Simon Miles wrote:
>> Paul, Luc,
>>
>> I'm OK with the definition, but I think it could be simplified and
>> clarified a little, and suggest:
>>
>> Derivation represents how stuff is transformed from or affected by
>> other stuff. A thing B is derived from a thing A if the values of some
>> invariant properties of B are at least partially determined by the
>> values of some invariant properties of A.
>>
>> The reasons for this proposed revision:
>>
>> 1. "A was used (and therefore created) before B was created" means the
>> definition of "derivation" is based on those for "use" and
>> "generation". This property seems, in practice, necessitated by B
>> having been determined by A anyway.
>>
> I think it's useful if all temporal properties are made explicit somewhere.
> It may be in the definition or in an explanation of it.  They are precise,
> and they represent a necessary condition for derivation (and other
> relations).
>
> My experience is that derivation is dependent on use/generation, but
> it may be too early to go to this level of detail.
>
>> 2. The first sentence mixes plural with singular, so it is unclear how
>> many things a derivation relates.
>>
>
> OK
>> 3. The "in the real world" caveat seems unnecessary if "things" are
>> defined to be explicitly about the real world. Moreover, if we decide
>> to revise the definition of "thing" to cover more than the real world,
>> then derivation would also have to be revised.
>>
>>
>
> Agreed. Once we converge towards common definitions,  we can
> have a general preamble about the real world, and avoid this kind
> of repetition.
>
> You should definitely add it to the wiki.
> Luc
>> Thanks,
>> Simon
>>
>> On 20 June 2011 21:07, Paul Groth<pgroth@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> What do people think of Luc's definition of derivation:
>>>
>>> - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov
>>> /wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc_.28in_terms_of_properties.29
>>> Things represent stuff in the real-world.
>>>
>>> Definition of Derivation. A derivation represents how stuffs are
>>> transformed or affect each other in the real world.
>>>
>>> A thing B is derived from a thing A if:
>>>
>>> A was used (and therefore created) before B was created
>>> The values of some invariant properties of B are partially determined by
>>> the values of some invariant properties of A
>>>
>>> James you seemed to suggest another way to define derivation or not
>>> define it all? Can you be more specific?
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Paul
>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Professor Luc Moreau
> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>
>
>
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-- 
Dr Simon Miles
Lecturer, Department of Informatics
Kings College London, WC2R 2LS, UK
+44 (0)20 7848 1166
Received on Tuesday, 21 June 2011 14:22:13 GMT

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