W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-prov-wg@w3.org > June 2011

Re: definition of derivation?

From: James Cheney <jcheney@inf.ed.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:40:45 +0300
Cc: "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Message-Id: <C75A6F5B-0414-43CA-90A0-EC4C8096808C@inf.ed.ac.uk>
To: Paul Groth <pgroth@gmail.com>
I'm fine with the proposal as a starting point.  I have mostly been  
quiet about definitions because I feel that consensus on naive/English  
language definitions will converge faster if I resist my natural  
temptation to point out subtleties :)

My comment was just to emphasize that derivation (like many of the  
other concepts) is something whose intricacies have employed  
generations of philosophers with no end in sight.

So, I would be happy with Luc's proposed definition as a starting  
point, but it begs the question of what it means for some thing's  
properties to have been "partially determined by" some other thing's  
properties.  "Partially determined by" seems to me to be a synonym for  
"derived from", and it's not clear how to define either one without  
reference to the other.  My suggestion would therefore to say that  
whether a "derivation" or "partially determined by" relationship holds  
could be subjective or context-dependent assertion, not an objectively  
true or false statement.  (For example, courts or academic review  
boards are sometimes asked to decide whether oen work "was derived  
from", i.e. plagiarized or reused another).

Perhaps getting at objective truth is not the point of the starting- 
point definitions anyway.

Incidentally, am at the TAPP workshop today and tomorrow, where there  
has been extensive discussion of this very thing (along with a number  
of other issues).

--James

On Jun 20, 2011, at 11:06 PM, Paul Groth wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> What do people think of Luc's definition of derivation:
>
> - http://www.w3.org/2011/prov /wiki/ 
> ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc_.28in_terms_of_properties.29
> Things represent stuff in the real-world.
>
> Definition of Derivation. A derivation represents how stuffs are  
> transformed or affect each other in the real world.
>
> A thing B is derived from a thing A if:
>
> A was used (and therefore created) before B was created
> The values of some invariant properties of B are partially  
> determined by the values of some invariant properties of A
>
> James you seemed to suggest another way to define derivation or not  
> define it all? Can you be more specific?
>
>
> Thanks,
> Paul
>
>


-- 
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Received on Monday, 20 June 2011 20:41:31 GMT

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.2.0+W3C-0.50 : Thursday, 26 April 2012 13:06:31 GMT