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Re: PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]

From: Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 13:11:18 +0100
Message-ID: <4DF0B866.6040107@cs.man.ac.uk>
To: Daniel Garijo <dgarijo@delicias.dia.fi.upm.es>
CC: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>, "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
On 09/06/2011 12:41, Daniel Garijo wrote:
> Hi Khalid,
> so, according to your first definition, a "derivation" between to 
> IVPTs (iv1 and iv2) would always mean
> that the former has a "use" relationship between iv1 and the process 
> execution that generated iv2 ?

No, what I mean, is that we know that the process execution has used the 
content of iv1 to generate iv2, we didn't infer such a relationship just 
form the signature of the process.

Thanks, khalid
>
> I think that it may be an incorrect assertion in some cases, because I 
> could use iv1 to compare something in a process
> execution and generate iv2 as result, but it would not necessarily 
> mean that iv2 has been derived from iv1.
>
> Thanks,
> Daniel
>
> 2011/6/9 Khalid Belhajjame <Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk 
> <mailto:Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>>
>
>
>     Hi,
>
>
>     >Agreed that time ordering is a necessary property but it is not
>     sufficient. Can we try to give some intuition of what Derivation
>     consists of, beyond time ordering, without being controversial?
>     >That's what I was trying to do by suggesting information flow (or
>     alternatively transformation).
>
>     One possible approach would be to identify possible derivations
>     based on the kinds of dependencies that exists in workflows (or
>     processes). Typically, there are two kinds:
>
>     - Data-based derivation:  an IVPT iv2 is derived from another IVPT
>     iv1, if the process execution that generated iv2 did so using (the
>     content of) iv1.
>
>     - Control-based derivation: an IVPT iv2 is derived from another
>     IVPT iv1 if the decision of generating iv2 was made based on iv1.
>
>     Thanks, khalid
>
>
>
>         Professor Luc Moreau
>         Electronics and Computer Science
>         University of Southampton
>         Southampton SO17 1BJ
>         United Kingdom
>
>         On 9 Jun 2011, at 07:38, "Graham Klyne"<GK@ninebynine.org
>         <mailto:GK@ninebynine.org>>  wrote:
>
>             One might just delete the word "causal"?  The real essence
>             is captured by "needs to have existed" IMO.
>
>             #g
>             --
>
>             Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>                 Hi Graham,
>                 Thanks for the quote ;-)
>                 Paulo, during the life of the Incubator, repeatedly
>                 criticized the notion of "causal relationship".
>                 In what way is this causal?  It's a bit like using the
>                 term "influence" discussed earlier.
>                 Regards,
>                 Luc
>                 On 08/06/11 18:47, Graham Klyne wrote:
>
>                     I've added something based on OPM, which always
>                     made sense to me:
>
>                     http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_adapted_by_Graham
>
>                     #g
>                     -- 
>
>                     Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>                         Hi all,
>                         Another perspective on derivation:
>
>                         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc
>
>                         Luc
>
>                         On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>                             Hi Paul and Daniel.
>
>                             On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>
>                                 Hi Luc, all:
>
>                                 Is it really necessary to go down this
>                                 road of defining influence. I have
>                                 this fear that we will never bottom out.
>
>                             Agreed.
>
>                                 There are certain concepts that need
>                                 to be defined terminologically others
>                                 may not. It depends on what are the
>                                 core building blocks of the model are.
>
>                             I suppose we wouldn't want the standard
>                             model to be over-constraining, to allow
>                             for many forms of derivations (in
>                             physical, digital, conceptual contexts).
>
>                             So, what are the (minimum) properties that
>                             need to be satisfied in order to qualify
>                             as a derivation?
>
>                             Luc
>
>                                 Paul
>
>                                 Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>                                     Hi all,
>
>                                     Having identified a concept of
>                                     Invariant View or Perspective on
>                                     Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back
>                                     to the meaning of Derivation.
>
>                                     Several of you indicated that
>                                     Derivation expresses that one IVPT
>                                     was influenced by another IVPT.
>
>                                     Paolo has asked what does it mean
>                                     to 'influence'? It's a good question!
>
>                                     Will we be able to define a notion
>                                     of influence that applies for all
>                                     things,
>                                     whether physical, digital,
>                                     conceptual, or other?  Should we
>                                     go down the road of
>                                     modelling influence in specific
>                                     domains?
>
>                                     Regards,
>                                     Luc
>
>
>
>                                     On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik
>                                     wrote:
>
>                                         On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM,
>                                         Daniel Garijo wrote:
>
>                                             Hi Luc, all
>                                             In the example c2 is also
>                                             a derivation of d2, and
>                                             from my point of view,
>                                             c2 could also be seen as a
>                                             derivation from c1, since
>                                             it is the chart taken as
>                                             reference
>                                             and corected in c2...
>
>                                             As for your second
>                                             question, I think that if
>                                             we want to be able to cover
>                                             provenance from resources,
>                                             resources representations
>                                             and resources state
>                                             representation, a
>                                             derivation must be able to
>                                             refer to all of them.
>
>                                             What do you think?
>
>                                          From the existing
>                                         example/scenario section on
>                                         Derivation:
>
>                                         A derivation is a relation
>                                         between two Resource State
>                                         Representations that expresses
>                                         that one RSR was influenced by
>                                         the other RSR.
>
>                                         A agree that a derivation
>                                         should be a relation between
>                                         two like resource
>                                         abstractions, and I agree with
>                                         Daniel in that I am not sure
>                                         we should limit it to RSR.  I
>                                         believe one Resource could be
>                                         derived from another Resource,
>                                         and same with Resource State.
>                                          I also believe derivation
>                                         covers a large spectrum of
>                                         relationships - FRBR has
>                                         covered some of this ground on
>                                         the wide spectrum of different
>                                         types of derivation so
>                                         thankfully we do not have to
>                                         start from scratch. Stories
>                                         can be derived from other
>                                         stores, editions of
>                                         publications are derived from
>                                         earlier editions, adaptions
>                                         are derived works,
>                                          translations are derived
>                                         expressions, etc.
>
>                                         I suggest an quick overview of
>                                         FRBR's conclusions on
>                                         derivations to provide direction.
>
>                                         I also agree with the
>                                         suggestion that Version be a
>                                         specialization / subtype of
>                                         Derivation, as suggested in
>                                         the Version section of the
>                                         existing example/scenario.
>
>                                         --Stephan
>
>                                             Best,
>                                             Daniel
>
>                                             2011/5/27 Luc
>                                             Moreau<L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>                                             <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk><mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>                                             <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>>
>
>
>                                                Dear all,
>
>                                                Over the last week, we
>                                             debated the notion of resource
>                                                (PROV-ISSUE-1),
>                                                one of the concepts
>                                             identified in the charter
>                                             as core to a
>                                                provenance
>                                                data model. It would be
>                                             good to discuss the notion
>                                             of derivation.
>
>                                                Do we agree with the
>                                             illustration of derivation
>                                             [1]:
>                                                in the example, chart
>                                             c1 is a derivation of data
>                                             set d1.
>                                                Are there other
>                                             interesting illustrations?
>
>                                                Is derivation relating
>                                             resources/resource
>                                             representations/resource
>                                                representation states?
>
>                                                Cheers,
>                                                Luc
>
>                                                [1]
>                                             http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
>
>
>
>
>
>                                                On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM,
>                                             Provenance Working Group
>                                             Issue Tracker
>                                                wrote:
>
>                                                    PROV-ISSUE-7
>                                             (define-derivation):
>                                             Definition for Concept
>                                                    'Derivation'
>                                             [Provenance Terminology]
>
>                                             http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7
>
>                                                    Raised by: Luc Moreau
>                                                    On product:
>                                             Provenance Terminology
>
>                                                    The Provenance WG
>                                             charter identifies the concept
>                                                    'Derivation' as a
>                                             core concept of the
>                                             provenance interchange
>                                                    language to be
>                                             standardized (see
>                                             http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter).
>
>                                                    What term do we
>                                             adopt for the concept
>                                             'Derivation'?
>                                                    How do we define
>                                             the concept 'Derivation'?
>                                                    Where does concept
>                                             'Derivation' appear in
>                                             ProvenanceExample?
>                                                    Which provenance
>                                             query requires the concept
>                                             'Derivation'?
>
>                                                    Wiki page:
>                                             http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                                                --     Professor Luc Moreau
>                                                Electronics and
>                                             Computer Science   tel:  
>                                             +44 23 8059 4487
>                                                University of
>                                             Southampton          fax:
>                                               +44 23 8059 2865
>                                                Southampton SO17 1BJ  
>                                                         email:
>                                             l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>                                             <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk><mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>                                             <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>                                                United Kingdom
>                                             http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>                                             <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>                                             <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Received on Thursday, 9 June 2011 12:12:21 GMT

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