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Re: PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]

From: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 22:05:34 +0100
Message-ID: <EMEW3|241bfa43a55e6cd571c2173f6801c388n57M5b08L.Moreau|ecs.soton.ac.uk|4DEFE41E.7090004@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org
Hi Graham,

Thanks for the quote ;-)

Paulo, during the life of the Incubator, repeatedly criticized the 
notion of "causal relationship".
In what way is this causal?  It's a bit like using the term "influence" 
discussed earlier.

Regards,
Luc

On 08/06/11 18:47, Graham Klyne wrote:
> I've added something based on OPM, which always made sense to me:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_adapted_by_Graham 
>
>
> #g
> -- 
>
> Luc Moreau wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Another perspective on derivation:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc
>>
>> Luc
>>
>> On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Paul and Daniel.
>>>
>>> On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>> Hi Luc, all:
>>>>
>>>> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. 
>>>> I have this fear that we will never bottom out.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>>
>>>> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically 
>>>> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of 
>>>> the model are.
>>>
>>> I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be 
>>> over-constraining, to allow for many forms of derivations (in 
>>> physical, digital, conceptual contexts).
>>>
>>> So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in 
>>> order to qualify as a derivation?
>>>
>>> Luc
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on 
>>>>> Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back
>>>>> to the meaning of Derivation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT 
>>>>> was influenced by another IVPT.
>>>>>
>>>>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good 
>>>>> question!
>>>>>
>>>>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for 
>>>>> all things,
>>>>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other?  Should we go 
>>>>> down the road of
>>>>> modelling influence in specific domains?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> Luc
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Luc, all
>>>>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point 
>>>>>>> of view,
>>>>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the 
>>>>>>> chart taken as reference
>>>>>>> and corected in c2...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able 
>>>>>>> to cover
>>>>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and 
>>>>>>> resources state
>>>>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State 
>>>>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the 
>>>>>> other RSR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like 
>>>>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not 
>>>>>> sure we should limit it to RSR.  I believe one Resource could be 
>>>>>> derived from another Resource, and same with Resource State.  I 
>>>>>> also believe derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships 
>>>>>> - FRBR has covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of 
>>>>>> different types of derivation so thankfully we do not have to 
>>>>>> start from scratch. Stories can be derived from other stores, 
>>>>>> editions of publications are derived from earlier editions, 
>>>>>> adaptions are derived works,  translations are derived 
>>>>>> expressions, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations 
>>>>>> to provide direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization 
>>>>>> / subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of 
>>>>>> the existing example/scenario.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Stephan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource
>>>>>>>     (PROV-ISSUE-1),
>>>>>>>     one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a
>>>>>>>     provenance
>>>>>>>     data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of 
>>>>>>> derivation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]:
>>>>>>>     in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1.
>>>>>>>     Are there other interesting illustrations?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Is derivation relating resources/resource 
>>>>>>> representations/resource
>>>>>>>     representation states?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>>>     Luc
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     [1] 
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>>>>     wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept
>>>>>>>         'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>         On product: Provenance Terminology
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept
>>>>>>>         'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance 
>>>>>>> interchange
>>>>>>>         language to be standardized (see
>>>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>>         How do we define the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>>         Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in 
>>>>>>> ProvenanceExample?
>>>>>>>         Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>         Wiki page: 
>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>     --     Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>>     Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>>>>     University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>>>>     Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:
>>>>>>>     l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>>>>>     United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 21:06:18 GMT

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