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Re: PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept 'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]

From: Graham Klyne <GK@ninebynine.org>
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 18:47:46 +0100
Message-ID: <4DEFB5C2.5060409@ninebynine.org>
To: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
CC: public-prov-wg@w3.org
I've added something based on OPM, which always made sense to me:

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_adapted_by_Graham

#g
--

Luc Moreau wrote:
> Hi all,
> Another perspective on derivation:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation#Definition_by_Luc
> 
> Luc
> 
> On 06/08/2011 10:33 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>>
>> Hi Paul and Daniel.
>>
>> On 06/08/2011 10:13 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>> Hi Luc, all:
>>>
>>> Is it really necessary to go down this road of defining influence. I 
>>> have this fear that we will never bottom out.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> There are certain concepts that need to be defined terminologically 
>>> others may not. It depends on what are the core building blocks of 
>>> the model are.
>>
>> I suppose we wouldn't want the standard model to be over-constraining, 
>> to allow for many forms of derivations (in physical, digital, 
>> conceptual contexts).
>>
>> So, what are the (minimum) properties that need to be satisfied in 
>> order to qualify as a derivation?
>>
>> Luc
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> Luc Moreau wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> Having identified a concept of Invariant View or Perspective on 
>>>> Thing (IVPT), I'd like to go back
>>>> to the meaning of Derivation.
>>>>
>>>> Several of you indicated that Derivation expresses that one IVPT was 
>>>> influenced by another IVPT.
>>>>
>>>> Paolo has asked what does it mean to 'influence'? It's a good question!
>>>>
>>>> Will we be able to define a notion of influence that applies for all 
>>>> things,
>>>> whether physical, digital, conceptual, or other?  Should we go down 
>>>> the road of
>>>> modelling influence in specific domains?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Luc
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 27/05/11 20:34, Stephan Zednik wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On May 27, 2011, at 5:04 AM, Daniel Garijo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Luc, all
>>>>>> In the example c2 is also a derivation of d2, and from my point of 
>>>>>> view,
>>>>>> c2 could also be seen as a derivation from c1, since it is the 
>>>>>> chart taken as reference
>>>>>> and corected in c2...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for your second question, I think that if we want to be able to 
>>>>>> cover
>>>>>> provenance from resources, resources representations and resources 
>>>>>> state
>>>>>> representation, a derivation must be able to refer to all of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What do you think?
>>>>>
>>>>> From the existing example/scenario section on Derivation:
>>>>>
>>>>> A derivation is a relation between two Resource State 
>>>>> Representations that expresses that one RSR was influenced by the 
>>>>> other RSR.
>>>>>
>>>>> A agree that a derivation should be a relation between two like 
>>>>> resource abstractions, and I agree with Daniel in that I am not 
>>>>> sure we should limit it to RSR.  I believe one Resource could be 
>>>>> derived from another Resource, and same with Resource State.  I 
>>>>> also believe derivation covers a large spectrum of relationships - 
>>>>> FRBR has covered some of this ground on the wide spectrum of 
>>>>> different types of derivation so thankfully we do not have to start 
>>>>> from scratch. Stories can be derived from other stores, editions of 
>>>>> publications are derived from earlier editions, adaptions are 
>>>>> derived works,  translations are derived expressions, etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suggest an quick overview of FRBR's conclusions on derivations to 
>>>>> provide direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also agree with the suggestion that Version be a specialization / 
>>>>> subtype of Derivation, as suggested in the Version section of the 
>>>>> existing example/scenario.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Stephan
>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Daniel
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/5/27 Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
>>>>>> <mailto:L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Dear all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Over the last week, we debated the notion of resource
>>>>>>     (PROV-ISSUE-1),
>>>>>>     one of the concepts identified in the charter as core to a
>>>>>>     provenance
>>>>>>     data model. It would be good to discuss the notion of derivation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Do we agree with the illustration of derivation [1]:
>>>>>>     in the example, chart c1 is a derivation of data set d1.
>>>>>>     Are there other interesting illustrations?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Is derivation relating resources/resource 
>>>>>> representations/resource
>>>>>>     representation states?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Cheers,
>>>>>>     Luc
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     [1] http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     On 05/20/2011 08:07 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>>>     wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         PROV-ISSUE-7 (define-derivation): Definition for Concept
>>>>>>         'Derivation' [Provenance Terminology]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/7
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Raised by: Luc Moreau
>>>>>>         On product: Provenance Terminology
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         The Provenance WG charter identifies the concept
>>>>>>         'Derivation' as a core concept of the provenance interchange
>>>>>>         language to be standardized (see
>>>>>>         http://www.w3.org/2011/01/prov-wg-charter).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         What term do we adopt for the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>         How do we define the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>         Where does concept 'Derivation' appear in ProvenanceExample?
>>>>>>         Which provenance query requires the concept 'Derivation'?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>         Wiki page: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ConceptDerivation
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     --     Professor Luc Moreau
>>>>>>     Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487
>>>>>>     University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865
>>>>>>     Southampton SO17 1BJ               email:
>>>>>>     l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk <mailto:l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
>>>>>>     United Kingdom http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>>>> <http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/%7Elavm>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
> 
Received on Wednesday, 8 June 2011 17:51:45 GMT

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