Re: PROV-ISSUE-51 (asserter-def): Asserter needs to be defined with respect to a provenance container/account [Conceptual Model]

Hi,
I agree with Luc that asserter is a sub type of Agent concept and partially
with Paolo that asserter is outside of PIL.

If we introduce a concept for asserter, we may need a concept for an
observer, a verifying/validating entity etc.? Maybe we should leave it for
the users/adopters of the provenance model to define these specialized
entities.

Thanks.

Best,
Satya

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Paolo Missier <Paolo.Missier@ncl.ac.uk>wrote:

> See if I understand correctly:
>  We had agreed, I think, that asserter is outside of the assertion
> language. But we also need to annotate assertions with attribution, i.e., by
> making the asserter explicit.
> The provenance container is designed to allow this.
> If this is the case, do we agree that the container belongs to a meta-model
> for provenance?
> And furthermore, we seem to also say that the assertion language can be
> used to predicate on the meta-model (i.e., when you say that the container
> itself has provenance (is a Bob)), and thus to make assertions about
> assertions (for instance, to assert who is the asserter)
>
> is this accurate?
>
> -Paolo
>
>
>
>
>
> On 7/28/11 10:57 AM, Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> To get the Paul rolling, I would like to put a proposal forward.
>>
>> It feels to me that we already have the concepts to define an asserter:
>> agent and role.
>> So, I am tempted to say we do not need to introduce a *new* concept, but
>> instead we should
>> explain how existing concepts can be exploited to characterize an
>> asserter.
>>
>> Attached, you'll find the assertions from the example put in a container.
>> The provenance of the container is embedded directly in the container
>> itself.
>> Obviously, we should also think about the PAQ document where we embed a
>> reference to provenance;
>> we may prefer this option.
>>
>> But the key thing is that the asserter is agent "Luc".
>>
>> Regards,
>> Luc
>>
>>
>> On 07/28/2011 10:11 AM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>
>>> PROV-ISSUE-51 (asserter-def): Asserter needs to be defined with respect
>>> to a provenance container/account [Conceptual Model]
>>>
>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/**track/issues/51<http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/51>
>>>
>>> Raised by: Paul Groth
>>> On product: Conceptual Model
>>>
>>> Asserter is a key part of the document. There are a number of places it's
>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> The definition of Provenance Container has the following note:
>>>
>>> "It should be possible for asserters to annotate the container with a
>>> description of the justification for the assertions it contains, as well as
>>> additional meta-information, such as authorship of the assertions."
>>>
>>> The View/Account mention has the following:
>>>
>>> "an account is a set of assertions, forming a perspective on the world."
>>>
>>> Asserter should be defined.
>>>
>>>
>
>