Re: PROV-ISSUE-43 (derivation-time): Deriviation should have associated time [Conceptual Model]

Hi Khalid,
>I don't think that such a rule was suggested to infer new information. It
was merely used to clarify what the time t >refers to in the assertion
isDerivedFrom(b1,b2,t), i.e., whether t refers to the time in which the
process execution >that generates b2 use b1, or the time at which the
process in question generates b2.
I am not sure we can infer anything about the time at which a process uses
b1 from isDerivedFrom(b1, b2, t) - one explanation of the
assertion isDerivedFrom(b1, b2, t) can be that b1 "starts existing" at t and
we know that b1 was derived from b2, hence we can say that b1 was derived
from b2 at t. Extending this interpretation, we may in some cases, where we
know about the process that generated b1, that process generated b1 at t.

The above explanation can be stated as the following rule:
if isDerivedFrom (b1, b2, t) and isGeneratedBy(b1, pe) then
isGeneratedBy(b1, pe, t).

Thanks.

Best,
Satya

On Wed, Jul 27, 2011 at 4:11 AM, Khalid Belhajjame <
Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:

> **
>
> Hi Satya,
>
>
> On 26/07/2011 19:26, Satya Sahoo wrote:
>
> Hi Khalid,
> >  No information about the process pe is inferred. The above merely
> specifies that there exists a process >execution, (which we don't know),
> such that isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
> If we do not know about pe, then what new knowledge is being added to the
> provenance store using the above rule?
>
>
> I don't think that such a rule was suggested to infer new information. It
> was merely used to clarify what the time t refers to in the assertion
> isDerivedFrom(b1,b2,t), i.e., whether t refers to the time in which the
> process execution that generates b2 use b1, or the time at which the process
> in question generates b2.
>
> Thanks, khalid
>
>
>  The information that a pe may exist anyway follows from our 'open world
> assumption'.
>
>  > IMO, we cannot make this inference. The process execution pe may well
> generate e1 without using e0, even if >e0 is an input of that process
> execution.
> I agree with your point - there may be an indirect dependency between e1
> and e0 (if pe cannot be executed without e0 being present). But, defining
> the indirect dependency as the isGeneratedBy property may be inaccurate.
>
>  Thanks.
>
>  Best,
> Satya
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 4:26 AM, Khalid Belhajjame <
> Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Satya,
>>
>> On 26/07/2011 02:33, Satya Sahoo wrote:
>>
>> Hi Luc,
>> >  I think there is a missing "inference" in the specification.
>> >If there isDerivedFrom(e1,e0) holds, then there exists a process
>> execution pe, and roles r0,r1, such that:
>> >isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>>
>>  I am not sure how can we infer additional information (pe, r0, r1) from
>> limited information (e1, e0)? Did you mean, we have the information about
>> pe, r0, r1, and the link between them and (e1, e0) already stored somewhere?
>>
>>
>>  No information about the process pe is inferred. The above merely
>> specifies that there exists a process execution, (which we don't know), such
>> that isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>>
>>
>>
>>  As an alternate, I think we can define the inference rule in the
>> opposite direction:
>> if there exists: isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>> then: isDerivedFrom(e1,e0) holds true?
>>
>>
>>  IMO, we cannot make this inference. The process execution pe may well
>> generate e1 without using e0, even if e0 is an input of that process
>> execution.
>>
>> Thanks, khalid
>>
>>
>>
>>  Also, if we consider the above alternate version of the rule, we need to
>> define whether isDerivedFrom "existentially dependent" on "isGeneratedBy"
>> and "use" properties, in other words only if isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) AND
>> use(pe,e0,r0) already exist can we have isDerivedFrom(e1,e0)? Or,
>> isDerivedFrom can be independently asserted?
>>
>>  Best,
>> Satya
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 25, 2011 at 4:21 AM, Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like to refer to the missing inference I mentioned in a separate
>>> thread:
>>>
>>> I think there is a missing "inference" in the specification.
>>>
>>> If there isDerivedFrom(e1,e0) holds, then there exists a process
>>> execution pe, and roles r0,r1,
>>> such that:
>>>  isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>>>
>>>
>>> So, given isDerivedFrom(e1,e0), I would argue that there are potentially
>>> four
>>> notions of time associated with this derivation:
>>> - beginning of pe
>>> - end of pe
>>> - use of e0
>>> - generation of e1
>>>
>>> Paul, in your proposal, were you referring to any of these 4 instants, or
>>> did you have another notion of time not captured yet?
>>>
>>>
>>> Luc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/24/2011 09:12 PM, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something like that...I need to look at the exact definition of derived
>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> On Jul 24, 2011, at 20:43, Khalid Belhajjame<
>>>> Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok, I must admit I didn't understand that. Just to clarify, when one
>>>>> say
>>>>> isDerivedFrom(b1,b2,t), does that means that b2 was created at t?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, khalid
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 24/07/2011 18:33, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Khalid,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think this is what I mean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not when the assertion was made. It's when the derivation
>>>>>> occurred according to the asserter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just as with use and generation. It's the time at which these events
>>>>>> occur according to the asserter.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2011, at 18:08, Khalid Belhajjame<
>>>>>> Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>   wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 24/07/2011 15:35, Myers, Jim wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (The time is not the interval over which the derivation relation is
>>>>>>>> valid - in the same way the time on USED is not the time when that
>>>>>>>> relation is valid (it would be if the semantics were 'in use during
>>>>>>>> interval t') - both just describe the time when an enduring
>>>>>>>> relationship
>>>>>>>> was first formed.)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Agreed, that what I was hinting to in my last response email to Paul.
>>>>>>> The time I was referring to in my email was the validity, but Paul, I
>>>>>>> think, was talking about the time where the derivation was formed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which leads me to a new proposal. Instead of having the time as
>>>>>>> argument
>>>>>>> to USE, GENERATION and derivation, e.g., isDerivedFrom(b1,b2,t).
>>>>>>> Would
>>>>>>> it be sensible to assume, instead, that every assertion may be
>>>>>>> associated with a time in which it was formed?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks, Khalid
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Jim
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: public-prov-wg-request@w3.org [mailto:public-prov-wg-
>>>>>>>>> request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Khalid Belhajjame
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 8:27 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: Paul Groth
>>>>>>>>> Cc: Provenance Working Group WG; Provenance Working Group Issue
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tracker
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: PROV-ISSUE-43 (derivation-time): Deriviation should
>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>> associated time [Conceptual Model]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 24/07/2011 13:13, Paul Groth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Khalid
>>>>>>>>>> But why can't I say that a newspaper article is derived from a
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  picture at a
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> particular time? Or for that matter over a period of time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The way I see it, is that there will be a bob representing the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> newspaper article
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> and another representing the picture. If there is evidence that the
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> latter is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> derived from the former, then the derivation will always hold
>>>>>>>>> between
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> those
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> two bobs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Now, that I am writing this email, I am wondering whether we are
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> referring to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the same notion of time. In your statement, isDerivedFrom(b1,b2,t),
>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> think you
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> mean t is used to refers to the time in which the derivation
>>>>>>>>> assertion
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> made, whereas what I was thinking of is the (period of) time in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> derivation holds. Is that the case?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks, khalid
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The time is when the derivation occurred not when it applies.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>> Paul
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 24, 2011, at 13:06, Khalid
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Belhajjame<Khalid.Belhajjame@cs.man.ac.uk>     wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Hi Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think that "Use" and "Generation" should be associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> time.
>>>>>>>>>>> However, I don't think we should associate time to derivation.
>>>>>>>>>>> I would argue that isDerivedFrom(b1,b2) holds all time. Although
>>>>>>>>>>> b1
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> b2 may no longer exist, isDerivedFrom(b1,b2) is still valid.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, khalid
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 23/07/2011 16:46, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> PROV-ISSUE-43 (derivation-time): Deriviation should have
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>   associated
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   time [Conceptual Model]
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/43
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Raised by: Paul Groth
>>>>>>>>>>>> On product: Conceptual Model
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Other relationships have time associated with them (e.g. use,
>>>>>>>>>>>> generation, control)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There is no optional time associated with derivation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Suggested resolution is to add the following to the definition
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>  isDerivedFrom:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  -  May contain a "derived from time" t, the time or time
>>>>>>>>>>>> intervals
>>>>>>>>>>>> when b1 was derived from b2
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Example:
>>>>>>>>>>>> isDerivedFrom(b1,b2, t)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>   --
>>> Professor Luc Moreau
>>> Electronics and Computer Science   tel:   +44 23 8059 4487<%2B44%2023%208059%204487>
>>> University of Southampton          fax:   +44 23 8059 2865<%2B44%2023%208059%202865>
>>> Southampton SO17 1BJ               email: l.moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk
>>> United Kingdom                     http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~lavm
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>