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Re: PROV-ISSUE-42 (derivation-agent): Derivation should specifically mention agent in its definition [Conceptual Model]

From: Paul Groth <p.t.groth@vu.nl>
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 13:24:13 +0200
Message-ID: <4E2D525D.4030007@vu.nl>
To: Luc Moreau <L.Moreau@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
CC: "public-prov-wg@w3.org" <public-prov-wg@w3.org>
Ok. Then I think we need to tighten of the definition of derivation 
maybe...

This is interesting philosophically because it implies that agents can 
only act by controlling some process.

Paul


Luc Moreau wrote:
>
>
> In this model, Generation is what creates new BOBs.  So, any short cut
> we introduce
> that results in a new BOB should expand into a generation.
>
>
>
> So, if you want a shortCut, such as isCreatedBy(e1,david),
>
>     it implies the existence of a process execution pe, such that:
>     isGeneratedBy(e1,pe) and isControlledBy(pe,david,creator)
>
> where creator is a distinguished role
>
> Luc
>
>
> On 07/25/2011 10:54 AM, Paul Groth wrote:
>> Hi Luc,
>>
>> looking at the definition of Derivation it says:
>>
>> "Derivation expresses that some characterized entity is transformed
>> from, created from, or affected by another characterized entity."
>>
>> I think I'm thinking of the "created from" part of the definition in
>> my example. I want to say explicitly that David (e0) created an
>> article(e1).  Notationally: isCreatedFrom(e1, e0)
>>
>> I think this is compatible with the definition as it stands but not
>> compatible with the inference rule you propose. It would seem bizzare
>> to say that a process used a person in this example...
>>
>> Could you explain how that should be represented using the concepts we
>> have?
>>
>> Several of the shortcuts I think we need rely on making simple
>> statements about agents and their relationship to an entity. I thought
>> the best approach was to create  specializations of isDerivedFrom but
>> maybe that's not the best approach and it would be good to understand
>> that better.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Paul
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Luc Moreau wrote:
>>> Yes, I have no problem for agents to be source/destination of a
>>> derivation, but your example
>>> may introduce some confusion.  Let me try and explain why.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> First, I think there is a missing "inference" in the specification.
>>>
>>> If there isDerivedFrom(e1,e0) holds, then there exists a process
>>> execution pe, and roles r0,r1,
>>>      isGeneratedBy(e1,pe,r1) and use(pe,e0,r0)
>>>
>>>
>>> So, if I apply this to your example,
>>>
>>>       isGeneratedBy(e0,pe,r1) and  use(pe,David,r0)
>>>
>>>
>>> David may have been asserted to be an agent, or the agent nature of
>>> David can be inferred (as per definition
>>> of agent), but it's not because of its involvement in pe. It has to be
>>> in another process execution, right?
>>>
>>> Maybe, the example could become:
>>>
>>>     isDerivedFrom(david-in-his-thirties, david-in-his-twenties).
>>>
>>> What do you think?
>>> Luc
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07/23/2011 04:36 PM, Provenance Working Group Issue Tracker wrote:
>>>> PROV-ISSUE-42 (derivation-agent): Derivation should specifically
>>>> mention agent in its definition [Conceptual Model]
>>>>
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/42
>>>>
>>>> Raised by: Paul Groth
>>>> On product: Conceptual Model
>>>>
>>>> Given that isDerivedFrom is between Bobs this by definition allows
>>>> it to relate agents, it would nice for informative to mention this
>>>> in the definition.
>>>>
>>>> For example, I would like to say that isDerivedFrom(e0, David) this
>>>> is fine with the current definition but might not be clear.
>>>>
>>>> Suggested resolution:
>>>>
>>>> Add the following statement: "Note, that isDerivedFrom can also
>>>> include agents. For example,  isDerivedFrom(e0, David).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>

-- 
Dr. Paul Groth (p.t.groth@vu.nl)
http://www.few.vu.nl/~pgroth
Assistant Professor
Knowledge Representation & Reasoning Group
Artificial Intelligence Section
Department of Computer Science
VU University Amsterdam
Received on Monday, 25 July 2011 11:26:57 GMT

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