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Draft Minutes: 18 December 2012

From: Arthur Barstow <art.barstow@nokia.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2012 12:15:01 -0500
Message-ID: <50D0A495.2010707@nokia.com>
To: "public-pointer-events@w3.org" <public-pointer-events@w3.org>
The draft minutes from the December 18 voice conference are available at 
<http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html> and copied below.

WG Members - if you have any comments, corrections, etc., please send 
them to the public-pointer-events mail list before 8 January 2013 - the 
date of the next call. In the absence of any changes, these minutes will 
be considered approved.

Thanks to Rick for Scribing this meeting.

-ArtB



    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                    Pointer Events WG Voice Conference

18 Dec 2012

    [2]Agenda

       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0109.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Art_Barstow, Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Vedamuthu,
           Olli_Pettay, Doug_Schepers, Cathy_Chan

    Regrets
    Chair
           Art

    Scribe
           Art, Rick

Contents

      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]Getting started
          2. [6]pointer events bugs
          3. [7]Bug 20107 - eraser button for penb
          4. [8]Bug 20221 - mechanism for creating PointerEvent
             instances
          5. [9]Bug 20219 - Making pointerType a string
          6. [10]hardware timestamps - bug 20220
          7. [11]Bug 20236 - Is button value -1 impossible?
          8. [12]bug 20218 - Extent pointer events to support raw
             trackpad data
          9. [13]Bug 20133 - clarify touchAction applies only to
             pointerDown
         10. [14]AoB
      * [15]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <ArtB> Scribe: Art

    <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB

    Date: 18 December 2012

    <smaug> mbrubeck: ping

Getting started

    AB: need a scribe (cheat sheet
    <[16]http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings#Meeting_Scri
    bes>)

      [16] http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/Meetings#Meeting_Scribes%3E)

    Scribe+ Rick

    <scribe> ScribeNick: rbyers

    <smaug> ++rbyers

    <ArtB> AB: draft agenda posted yesterday
    [17]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0077.html. Any change requests?

      [17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0077.html.

pointer events bugs

    <ArtB>
    [18]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=PointerE
    ventsWG&component=Pointer%20Events%20specification&resolution=-
    --&list_id=2680

      [18] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=PointerEventsWG&component=Pointer%20Events%20specification&resolution=---&list_id=2680

    <jrossi2>
    [19]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107

      [19] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20107

Bug 20107 - eraser button for penb

    Jacob: Asir sent out proposal for actual value to use

    <jrossi2>
    [20]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0113.html

      [20] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html

    Jacob: just use the next button value
    ... USB spec does call it the eraser button, probably makes
    sense to re-use that term here
    ... Any objections?

    RESOLUTION: Add button value named 'eraser'

    <jrossi2>
    [21]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20221

      [21] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20221

    <ArtB> > per Asir's proposal in
    [22]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0113.html

      [22] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0113.html

Bug 20221 - mechanism for creating PointerEvent instances

    Jacob: just gap in original proposal - thought dictionary was
    actually there

    <jrossi2>
    [23]http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/#co
    nstructors

      [23] http://html5labs.interoperabilitybridges.com/dom4events/#constructors

    Jacob: pattern originates in DOM4, above example suggests how
    to do it for events
    ... but not yet an actual deliverable
    ... so can't define dictionary for pointer events that inherits
    from dictionary for mouse events

    <jrossi2>
    [24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0117.html

      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0117.html

    Jacob: But we could completely define the dictionary now, and
    inherit in the future to collapse into one?

    Art: Believe current charter of webapps includes DOM4 events,
    and there is an editors draft
    ... but no first public working draft yet

    Jacob: concern is creating normative dependency on that

    <ArtB> D4Events ED: [25]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/

      [25] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/

    Art: OK with dependency on DOM3 events for now

    Jacob: if there is no functional difference then we can update
    our spec in errata

    Olli: order of properties may be an issue

    Jacob: I put them in order for inheritance chain
    ... but I can check the details. Probably just a matter of
    making sure that the order we specify in PE spec, matches how
    they'd come out via inheritance

    Olli: doesn't matter what order they are in in the spec, what
    matters is how the implementation orders them

    Jacob: OK, I can check that

    <ArtB> -> D4E Editor's Draft:
    [26]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm

      [26] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/d4e/raw-file/tip/source_respec.htm

    Jacob: don't think D4 spec specifies this

    Olli: It's in the WebIDL spec
    ... inheritance may inmply a different order

    <scribe> ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to
    define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future
    inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [recorded in
    [27]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Determine if WebIDL permits us
    to define our dictionary in a way compatibile with future
    inheritance from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [on Jacob Rossi -
    due 2012-12-25].

    Jacob: If we did define in relation to DOM4 events, what is the
    process?

    Art: Ideally we'd be at least one stage behind in maturity
    level. Eg. could prevent us from going to REC status until DOM4
    events is CR

    <smaug> "The order of the dictionary members on a given
    dictionary is such that inherited dictionary members are
    ordered before non-inherited members, and the dictionary
    members on the one dictionary definition (including any partial
    dictionary definitions) are ordered lexicographically by the
    Unicode codepoints that comprise their identifiers. "

    Doug: if you have a normative dependency you're not supposed to
    move forward, but W3C is examining this. I think we're
    relatively safe here. We could wait until last call to see if
    we have an issue.
    ... there are options, will only bite us post-CR

    <smaug>
    [28]http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries

      [28] http://dev.w3.org/2006/webapi/WebIDL/#idl-dictionaries

    Jacob: OK, thanks. If there's no issue I'd still prefer not to
    take a dependency

    Olli: I think there is an issue

    Jacob: OK, so we may just have to take the dependency and worry
    about it later

    RESOLUTION: Will add dictionary for event creation. This will
    add a dependency on DOM4 events, pending confirmation that
    there is a functional difference between inheritance and
    flattened dictionaries.

    <jrossi2>
    [29]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0114.html

      [29] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html

Bug 20219 - Making pointerType a string

    Jacob: change made in spec with table of normative values
    ... put in suggested text:

    <jrossi2> "If a user agent supports pointer device types other
    than those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be
    vendor prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types
    of devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional
    normative values for other device types."

    ""If a user agent supports pointer device types other than
    those listed above, the value of pointerType SHOULD be vendor
    prefixed to avoid conflicting names for different types of
    devices. Future specifications MAY provide additional normative
    values for other device types."

    Jacob: any concerns over 'SHOULD' here?

    Art: this could be an informative note, but this is fine too

    Any objections to proposed text in
    [30]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0114.html?

      [30] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html?

    None

    <ArtB> ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as
    proposed in
    [31]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0114.html [recorded in
    [32]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]

      [31] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Implement the proposal for bug
    20219 as proposed in
    [33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0114.html [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25].

      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html

    RESOLUTION: Incorporate text from email 0114.html into spec -
    custom pointerTypes SHOULD be vendor prefixed

    <jrossi2>
    [34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0118.html

      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0118.html

hardware timestamps - bug 20220

    [35]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20220

      [35] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20220

    <jrossi2>
    [36]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/HighResolu
    tionTime/Overview.html

      [36] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webperf/raw-file/tip/specs/HighResolutionTime/Overview.html

    Jacob: specifies a timestamp in milliseconds with accuracy up
    to 1/1000th of an ms
    ... type change makes perfect sense
    ... discussion about whether all DOM events should add such an
    timestamp
    ... fine as long as defined as defined as hardware time instead
    of dispatch time

    Rick: that was definiately the intention (flackr started this
    work for touch performance - exactly the scenario envisioned by
    the current PE spec text)

    Jacob: Ok, sounds good

    Propose removing hwTimestamp from this spec, but we'd come back
    if there was an issue getting it added to DOM4 events

    No objections

    RESOLUTION: remove hwTimestamp from PE spec (under expectation
    it will get added to all DOM events)

    <jrossi2>
    [37]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236

      [37] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20236

Bug 20236 - Is button value -1 impossible?

    Jacob: Olli pointed out that button is technically unsigned, so
    -1 is invalid
    ... Don't want to churn DOM3 spec
    ... Doesn't seem to be an interop problem in practice for this
    to be -1
    ... So propose that PE change the definition to signed

    Olli: Would prefer to change DOM3 event here
    ... but do we really need a negative value?

    <jrossi2>
    [38]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEve
    nts.html#chorded-button-interactions

      [38] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#chorded-button-interactions

    Jacob: idea is to optimize for least common denominator
    ... want to be able to write for mouse and have it work with
    touch
    ... mouse behaves as a contact, subsequent up/down just alter
    the button state
    ... but DOM3 says that button is only valid on mousedown
    ... so use -1 as a sentinal value
    ... alternately could have a 'button state change' event

    Olli: worried about libraries seeing a change in behavior on
    button

    Jacob: don't think -1 should cause any interop problem

    correction. Jacob: don't think changing unsigned to signed for
    MouseEvent would have any impact on library

    scribe: only way to test is creating synthetic event with
    negative value, but no interop here
    ... we're not actually ever going to have a negative value for
    MouseEvent, only PointerEvent - so can't break libraries that
    way

    Olli: it just seems ugly to redefine a property here

    Jacob: What if we changed DOM3 events instead?

    Olli: That would be cleaner

    <scribe> ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be
    changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call.
    [recorded in
    [39]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Ask DOM3 editor whether button
    could be changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last
    call. [on Jacob Rossi - due 2012-12-25].

    Jacob: Could make an argument that it's safe, but worried about
    it
    ... If it would be a big problem for DOM3 events then we'll
    bring up changing it in PointerEvents again here

    <jrossi2>
    [40]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20218

      [40] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20218

bug 20218 - Extent pointer events to support raw trackpad data

    Rick: idea is that in the future web apps might want to get raw
    touch data from trackpads (eg. for defining it's own gestures)

    Jacob: we actually considered this in the origina PE design.
    Currently no standard (non-driver-specific) way to do this on
    Windows, but that could change.

    Rick: MacOS permits readings raw trackpad touch data

    Jacob: not just about trackpads on laptops, but also other
    hardware like large Wacom touchpads - 'indirect touch'
    ... We thought about it in IE10, but have no plans to do it
    anytime soon
    ... May be a good thing for PointerEvents 2

    Proposal: create wishlist for v2 features, and add this one

    no objections

    <jrossi2>
    [41]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311

      [41] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20311

    RESOLUTION: Mark trackpad bug 20218 as resolved Later for PE v2

    <jrossi2>
    [42]http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEve
    nts.html#the-touch-action-css-property

      [42] http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/pointerevents/raw-file/tip/pointerEvents.html#the-touch-action-css-property

Bug 20133 - clarify touchAction applies only to pointerDown

    Jacob: this is really already covered by the spec
    ... but is a good idea to make a tweak to make it more clear
    ... would prefer to do it at the same time as other touchAction
    changes in discussion on list

    All agreed

    ArtB: yes, we're both on Chrome (different office though)

AoB

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: Next call will be Jan 8, 2013

    <asir_> Happy Holidays!!

    Doug: please use the mailing list for discussion until our next
    meeting

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: jacob implement the proposal for bug 20219 as
    proposed in
    [43]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2
    012OctDec/0114.html [recorded in
    [44]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion02]
    [NEW] ACTION: jrossi Ask DOM3 editor whether button could be
    changed from unsigned to signed without resetting last call.
    [recorded in
    [45]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion03]
    [NEW] ACTION: jrossi Determine if WebIDL permits us to define
    our dictionary in a way compatibile with future inheritance
    from DOM4 mouse event dictionary [recorded in
    [46]http://www.w3.org/2012/12/18-pointerevents-minutes.html#act
    ion01]

      [43] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2012OctDec/0114.html

    [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 18 December 2012 17:15:33 GMT

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