W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-pling@w3.org > July 2009

RE: Geolocation Last Call

From: Giles Hogben <Giles.Hogben@enisa.europa.eu>
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2009 09:58:55 +0300
Message-ID: <3FA6AD22F0D6E64B81E89647A2A1C0E1010FD1F8@dimitra.net1.enisa.europa.eu>
To: <MCrompton@iispartners.com>,<jeanpierre.lerouzic@orange-ftgroup.com>,<ashok.malhotra@oracle.com>
Cc: <A.K.Bandara@open.ac.uk>,<public-pling@w3.org>,<renato@nicta.com.au>
I feel Firefox 3.5 has got something right with its latest offering wrt clickstream data privacy. It includes a simple private browsing on/off choice and "forget the last x hours of browsing".

I think we need a simple user interface, not a complex access control standard (there are plenty) or an "apply Heisenberg's uncertainty principle" button. This is still what's missing for location privacy stuff. With location we need a simple to understand button such as "blur my location" or "make me fuzzy" - or something better...

Re inference, in case you have not seen it, this paper recently published by Alessandro Acquisti and Ralph Gross http://www.cmu.edu/news/archive/2009/July/july6_ssnprediction.shtml is interesting.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: public-pling-request@w3.org [mailto:public-pling-request@w3.org]
> On Behalf Of Malcolm Crompton
> Sent: 14 July 2009 08:15
> To: jeanpierre.lerouzic@orange-ftgroup.com; ashok.malhotra@oracle.com
> Cc: A.K.Bandara@open.ac.uk; public-pling@w3.org; renato@nicta.com.au
> Subject: RE: Geolocation Last Call
> 
> Hmmm.  I am not sure what a simple 'authorise/prohibit' mechanism is,
> so not
> sure whether in fact I am in agreement.  Certainly, the default pending
> any
> active intervention by the user in the absence of any user control or
> limited/simple control is 'location services off'.
> 
> Malcolm Crompton
> 
> Managing Director
> Information Integrity Solutions Pty Ltd
> ABN 78 107 611 898
> 
> T:  +61 407 014 450
> 
> MCrompton@iispartners.com
> www.iispartners.com
> 
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jeanpierre.lerouzic@orange-ftgroup.com
> [mailto:jeanpierre.lerouzic@orange-ftgroup.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2009 8:47 AM
> To: ashok.malhotra@oracle.com
> Cc: A.K.Bandara@open.ac.uk; MCrompton@iispartners.com; public-
> pling@w3.org;
> renato@nicta.com.au
> Subject: RE: Geolocation Last Call
> 
> Hi Ashok and all,
> 
> I am on holidays right now and don't intend to go back to office, but I
> remember nice articles from Microsoft research on the subject of
> privacy and
> evidence or privacy and inference. For example there are articles
> exploring
> how information could be cross checked. Other articles highlight that
> an
> information could be given in one context but not in another so the
> decision
> a user has do is never perfect. It's similar to your line of thought
> below.
> In the EU project named SERVERY we also try to explore those ideas.
> 
> Still I want to emphasize the fact that if -as everyone here agrees-
> there
> is no avantage to use a simple authorize/prohibit mechanism, even a
> sophisticated authorize/prohibit mechanism to enforce privacy policies
> (for
> example by using an efficient user profiling tool and
> reasonning/statistics)
> is not enough in most real life situations (see the Google maps
> example): If
> we want to gain a wide audience we have also to propose sensible
> fallback
> solutions to the user in the case she doesn't want to give some private
> information to the service provider but still want to use the service.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Jean-Pierre
> 
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : ashok malhotra [mailto:ashok.malhotra@oracle.com]
> Envoyé : dimanche 12 juillet 2009 14:20
> À : LE ROUZIC Jean-Pierre RD-MAPS-REN
> Cc : A.K.Bandara@open.ac.uk; MCrompton@iispartners.com; public-
> pling@w3.org;
> renato@nicta.com.au
> Objet : Re: Geolocation Last Call
> 
> Jeanpierre:
> Can you send a pointer to these new ideas?  Thanks!
> 
> All the best, Ashok
> 
> 
> jeanpierre.lerouzic@orange-ftgroup.com wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Among developments in privacy, there are ideas on using evidence and
> statistics to manage user's privacy in a much simpler way with a finer
> grain
> than this kind of dashboard like 3GPP's UPM, where service are either
> authorized or forbidden.
> >
> > But I am not sure it's a so big problem in real life as the end user
> will
> probably be aware she is using a geolocalized service so there is no
> meaning
> in making it impossible to be localized. It is more simpler to not use
> the
> geolocalized service.
> > For example how one could want at the same time to use Google maps to
> get
> direction but being afraid of been located?
> >
> > Using a service means the user accepts to disclose some information.
> A way
> to deal with that is to use some proxy or third party that will make
> the
> request for the end user but will make it impossible for the service to
> cross check information (for example ID AND location).
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >
> > Jean-Pierre
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : public-pling-request@w3.org [mailto:public-pling-request@w3.org]
> > De la part de Arosha K Bandara Envoyé : vendredi 10 juillet 2009
> 18:57
> > À : MCrompton@iispartners.com; public-pling@w3.org Cc :
> > ashok.malhotra@oracle.com; 'Renato Iannella'
> > Objet : Re: Geolocation Last Call
> >
> > Absolutely agree about these issues.  "Easy to use" controls are not
> simply about privacy settings for sharing information at a given point
> in
> time.  It also requires some appreciation of the potential future value
> of
> the information - something that we are not very good at assessing
> anyway.
> >
> > I am an investigator on the PRiMMA project (http://primma.open.ac.uk)
> at
> the Open University in the UK where we are also looking at some of
> these
> issues.  I look forward to being a more active participant in this
> discussion going forward.
> >
> >  - Arosha
> >
> >
> > Malcolm Crompton wrote:
> >
> >> I agree, strongly.  The lack of sophistication in thinking around
> >> location based services & privacy is sometimes breathtaking.  It is
> >> neither 'anything goes' nor 'never disclose'.  It has to be much
> more
> >> nuanced than that.  A person on the lookout for a chance date is in
> a
> >> vastly different position from the person who is the secret
> >> negotiator going to the secret meeting to lock down the multi-
> million
> >> dollar deal.  AND the technology is NEVER going to be able to tell
> >> the difference, especially because it could in fact be the same
> person at
> different times in the same day.
> >>
> >> And that is before we bring in policing, national security and
> >> emergency rescue...
> >>
> >> Informed, easy to use control with the right default settings (just
> >> ask the behavioural economists et al) is going to be the only
> solution.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> Malcolm Crompton
> >>
> >> Managing Director
> >> Information Integrity Solutions Pty Ltd ABN 78 107 611 898
> >>
> >> T:  +61 407 014 450
> >>
> >> MCrompton@iispartners.com
> >> www.iispartners.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: public-pling-request@w3.org
> >> [mailto:public-pling-request@w3.org]
> >> On Behalf Of ashok malhotra
> >> Sent: Friday, July 10, 2009 11:25 AM
> >> To: Renato Iannella
> >> Cc: public-pling@w3.org
> >> Subject: Re: Geolocation Last Call
> >>
> >> I, too, was worried when I read Section 4.  It punts all the privacy
> >> APIs to the implementations.
> >> All the best, Ashok
> >>
> >>
> >> Renato Iannella wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> After reading Section 4 of the Working Draft [1], I am more worried
> >>> than before.
> >>>
> >>> It does not engender any confidence, even by using the term
> >>> "consideration", for the safety and awareness of the end user's
> privacy.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps we now need a PLING Note on "Best Practices for Privacy
> >>> Awareness" ?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Renato
> >>>
> >>> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/geolocation-API/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 8 Jul 2009, at 23:09, Thomas Roessler wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> No explicit request for review by PLING, but I think it would be
> >>>> fine for this IG to tell them that you want to do a review -- if
> >>>> that is indeed the case.
> >>>> --
> >>>> Thomas Roessler, W3C  <tlr@w3.org <mailto:tlr@w3.org>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Begin forwarded message:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> *From: *Angel Machín <angel.machin@gmail.com
> >>>>> <mailto:angel.machin@gmail.com>>
> >>>>> *Date: *8 July 2009 14:58:29 CEDT
> >>>>> *To: *janina@rednote.net <mailto:janina@rednote.net>,
> >>>>> art.barstow@nokia.com <mailto:art.barstow@nokia.com>,
> >>>>> chaals@opera.com <mailto:chaals@opera.com>,
> >>>>> Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com
> >>>>> <mailto:Mary_Ellen_Zurko@notesdev.ibm.com>, tlr@w3.org
> >>>>> <mailto:tlr@w3.org>, dom@w3.org <mailto:dom@w3.org>, dsr@w3.org
> >>>>> <mailto:dsr@w3.org>,  chris@w3.org <mailto:chris@w3.org>,
> >>>>> daniel.appelquist@vodafone.com
> >>>>> <mailto:daniel.appelquist@vodafone.com>,
> >>>>> dahl@conversational-technologies.com
> >>>>> <mailto:dahl@conversational-technologies.com>, rbarnes@bbn.com
> >>>>> <mailto:rbarnes@bbn.com>, acooper@cdt.org
> >>>>> <mailto:acooper@cdt.org>, bondi@omtp.org <mailto:bondi@omtp.org>,
> >>>>> jferrai@us.ibm.com <mailto:jferrai@us.ibm.com>, Lars Erik Bolstad
> >>>>> <lbolstad@opera.com <mailto:lbolstad@opera.com>>,  Matt Womer
> >>>>> <mdw@w3.org <mailto:mdw@w3.org>>, chairs@w3.org
> >>>>> <mailto:chairs@w3.org>
> >>>>> *Subject: **Geolocation Last Call*
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hello Chairs,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On behalf of Lars Erik Bolstad, the other co-chair of this WG,
> and I:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Geolocation Working Group has published the Geolocation API
> >>>>> Specification as a Last Call Working Draft on 7 July 2009:
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/TR/geolocation-API/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Feedback on this document would be appreciated through 31 July
> >>>>> 2009 via mail to public-geolocation@w3.org
> >>>>> <mailto:public-geolocation@w3.org>.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In particular we are requesting review from the Web Application
> >>>>> WG, Device APIs, Web Security Context, Ubiquitous Web
> >>>>> Applications, Mobile Web Best Practices, Hypertext Coordination,
> >>>>> Protocols and Formats Working Group and also GEOPRIV, BONDI and
> OpenAJAX Alliance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The Group made the decision to go to Last Call:
> >>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-
> geolocation/2009Jun/016
> >>>>> 1
> >>>>> .html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No patent disclosures have been made for this specification.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Angel Machin
> >>>>> Geolocation WG co-Chair
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>> Cheers...  Renato Iannella
> >>> NICTA
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Arosha K Bandara, PhD
> > Lecturer, The Open University,      e-mail: a.k.bandara@open.ac.uk
> > Walton Hall Campus                  Tel   : +44 1908 653545
> > Milton Keynes, MK 76AA, UK
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >           http://fasturl.open.ac.uk/a.k.bandara.htm
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 


Received on Tuesday, 14 July 2009 07:00:05 GMT

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