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Minutes: Policy Languages Interest Group 11 June 2008

From: Thomas Roessler <tlr@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 14:58:48 +0200
To: public-pling@w3.org
Message-ID: <20080611125848.GB272@iCoaster.does-not-exist.org>

Hello,

minutes from today's meeting are included below, and visible online
here:

  http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html

Regards,
-- 
Thomas Roessler, W3C  <tlr@w3.org>




[1]W3C

                        Policy Languages Interest Group

11 Jun 2008

   [2]Agenda

   See also: [3]IRC log

Attendees

   Present
          Thomas, marco, Rigo, Ashok_Malhotra, Jan_Schallboeck, christina

   Regrets
   Chair
          Marco Casassa-Mont

   Scribe
          rigo, tlr

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]agenda review
         2. [6]Review Wiki Activities
         3. [7]liaison updates?
         4. [8]TPAC
         5. [9]IEEE Policy 2008?
         6. [10]extension?
         7. [11]German Identity Camp update
         8. [12]preferences vs policies
         9. [13]PRIME Closing event
        10. [14]aob?
        11. [15]next meeting
     * [16]Summary of Action Items
     __________________________________________________________________



   <scribe> scribe: rigo

   <scribe> scribenick: rigo

   Hi Ashok

   <Ashok> Hi Rigo, Good Morning!

   for me it's already 2pm :)

   <Ashok> Ah! You are in Europe!

   <scribe> scribenick:tlr

agenda review

   <scribe> agenda: [17]http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/2008-06-11

   tlr: Can Jan S give us an update on the Identity camp?

   janS: policies and preferences, let's have a tempest

Review Wiki Activities

   marco: [18]http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/Main_Page
   ... any updates recently?

   Ashok: I've added some stuff on Ws-Policy
   ... pease note that it's a personal point of view, you might wish to
   object against it ...

   marco: Want to say what it is?

   ashok: What I put in there is stuff that WS-Policy doesn't say ...
   ... the spec says how you can write policy ...
   ... but not how to use them ...
   ... questions about how ws-policy ought to be used ...
   ... some interest in W3C work on WS-Policy usage ...
   ... not yet entirely clear whether and where that might happen ...
   ... will provide updates ....

   <rigo> [19]http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/OpenIssues

   <scribe> ACTION: Marco to drive discussion about making recent changes
   visible? [recorded in
   [20]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#action01]

   <rigo>
   [21]http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Recentc
   hanges&days=14

   <rigo> for latest changes

   marco: Added two pages as summary, to add some stuff about PRIME
   privacy-aware policies
   ... I will add some more about obligation policies ...
   ... anything else?

liaison updates?

   marco: I'm aware of some discussion re JTC1 SC27 WG 5?

   jans: Happy to give some overview of what happened there recently
   ... Kai R, Manfred ?? and myself from Primelife
   ... had some discussions about a standard proposed by ITU-T ...
   ... going into a final state ...
   ... X.IDMRequirements ...
   ... came out of FG IdM ...
   ... data flow model, definitional work ...
   ... heavy ISO discussion about that ...
   ... but ITU-T not too happy about these comments ....
   ... argument is that reducing IDM to basically one model of identity
   flow ...
   ... talking about having the IDP talk to the RP directly ...
   ... isn't very privacy friendly ...
   ... and there are systems out there that take different approaches ...
   ... getting some political momentum toward the end of the Kyoto meeting
   ...
   ... relatively harsh liaison statement to ITU-T ...
   ... but ITU-T said they couldn't take it into account, since there had
   been a liaison before ...

   marco: what'll happen next?

   jans: There will be some more comments; not sure whether they'll be
   taken into account
   ... talked to German rep to ITU-T, not clear whether they'll get it
   done in time for end of year ...
   ... within ISO, there's ongoing work on Identity framework and privacy
   architecture ...
   ... this is out there ...
   ... ??
   ... Think a liaison statement should have gone out to PLING giving an
   overview that WG5 is working on, so useful to look at
   ... if I think there's anything that's in scope here, I'll keep you
   updated ...

   rigo: Have you sent that liaison statement?
   ... I actually think we still have to write the request letter ...

   jan: We actually didn't pass anything in this direction
   ... probably a good idea to request liaison with formal statement,
   briefly describing pling ...
   ... mistakenly thought it was already established ...

   rigo: on my plate

   jan: Please do statement before September, that's the next meeting
   where it could be approved.

   marco: Anything else on the first point. Otherwise, updates on
   primelife?

   rigo: oh, yes, primelife update
   ... first deliverable finished, might be interested.
   ... it's a list of standards and descriptions ...
   ... some management stuff to be sorted out ...

   tlr: I think the deliverable is intended to be public, so should come
   up some time soon; Contributing it to pling is another question

   marco: liberty -- working on identity assurance, some of that relates
   to privacy
   ... might have deeper look and report during next meeting ...
   ... on picos... don't think anybody here is involved with that directly
   ...
   ... but I'd be happy to invite somebody relevant from HP labs to give
   an update and let them talk about potential links in terms of use cases
   and policies ...
   ... I fear they might also need some specific authorization ...

TPAC

   marco: 24/25 October
   ... updates on that?

   rigo: what we have to do now (and on the next meeting) ...
   ... is start thinking about how many people will come, have to get the
   room and all that ..
   ... set up agenda so we can attract other people ...
   ... and actually, also set up and encourage people to attend ...
   ... location is very nice ...
   ... all kinds of good reasons to go there ...
   ... would love to get a really interesting agenda together ...
   ... talking about issues we're facing in research projects, and how
   they relate to existing standards ...
   ... talk about what Ashok mentioned; WS-Policy enables negotiation, but
   how do you combine that with sticky policies ...
   ... how can we group the industry to generate sufficient intereest ...
   ... these kinds of discussions ...
   ... what are the challenges we should focus on ...
   ... for the moment we can discuss use cases or interesting cases ...
   ... have a bunch, but don't get around to putting them into the wiki
   ...

   marco: anything else we should be aware of?

IEEE Policy 2008?

   marco: Was anybody here at that meeting?

   silence

extension?

   rigo: If we're still on course, extension would be granted
   ... had a short charter, so it's expiring on 30 June at this point ...
   ... think it makes sense to continue given PrimeLife and PICOS, and
   interest in WS-POlicy ...
   ... would like to have commitments from chair candidates ...
   ... Ashok, is Oracle still supporting?

   ashok: I'm still interested in working with you guys

   rigo: That's what I mean.

   marco: Does anybody else have something new?

German Identity Camp update

   JanS: some effort to start momentum toward German OpenID foundation ...
   ... attended that session, dealt out business cards ...
   ... in case they're doing anything relevant to privacy ...
   ... they're not the ones to drive OpenId standard forward ...
   ... some interesting presentations on the new basic right that emerged
   in Germany ...
   ... some discussion with Caspar Bowden, who was alarmed by some moves
   within European Parliament ...
   ... to narrow down scope of personal data dramatically ...
   ... not too much that really overlaps with work here ...
   ... good gathering of community ...
   ... good thing to continuously do and get going ...
   ... a lot of people were interested in getting some IDM going ..
   ... but still looking for the killer app ...
   ... trying to find ways how to get it going ...
   ... pointed them to some activities; might be a case for some
   enterprise IDM stuff ...
   ... overall, think it was quite a good event ...
   ... hope to see this to continue soon ...

   marco: Was does "openID in Germany" really mean?

   janS: it's some people from Germany that have a specific interest in
   OpenID because they think it's a good protocol ...
   ... interest in being involved, pushing it into the market ...
   ... join forces to facilitate that approach ...
   ... promotion, use cases, ...

   marco: impact on policies in the long term; currently, very blurry

   jans: some people think OpenID might be interesting for credentials,
   but it currently seems to have flaws that make it unsuitable for secure
   credential exchange
   ... suspect that MS could include OpenID with their metasystem ...
   ... have heard that there are some implementations for Shibboleth,
   Liberty 2.0 tries to include both ...
   ... talked to caspar bowden about anonymous credential standardization
   ... don't think there should be expectations that anything might happen
   too soon ...
   ... ms and ibm might need to sort out somep oints ...
   ... there could be interest in fast-tracking a common standard
   somewhere ...

   marco: expect assertions to carry more and more information ...
   ... infocard; also, more and more assertions in liberty ...
   ... will impact back-en policies ...
   ... ws-policy ...
   ... use cases where change of credentials occurs within complex
   interactions ...
   ... in context with access control policies, and so on ...
   ... could be interesting discussion ...
   ... anything else?

preferences vs policies

   jans: some people said they'd like to see the same language used for
   preferences and policies ...

   <rigo> here comes the supermarket

   jans: but Rigo noted serious implications that would not allow for same
   language ...
   ... don't think we'll finish that one today ...

   ashok: did you mention there was a paper on this?

   jan: not specifically on this; it's a paper that we're preparing as a
   deliverable within PrimeLife; one paragraph was raising this question

   ashok: There has been a lot of discussion on this ...
   ... lots of people think this is an important requirement ...
   ... but nobody has come up with a framework or solution ...
   ... that's where we are on this ...
   ... that's why if you have a paper on this, I'd like to read it ...

   jans: no paper yet, but if it's reasonable, then need to move ahead
   ... instead of halting it right away ...

   ashok: What we require is a good idea
   ... how to do it ...

   jans: will report back after that meeting

   <rigo> tlr: think rigo's statement sounded about lesson about P3P WG

   <rigo> ...in that case I believe that P3P could not be used without
   pain to describe preferences

   <rigo> ...but what about description of permissible operations, this
   might work for both

   <rigo> ...have been playing around with this 2 years ago

   <rigo> ...modelled some subset of P3P in OWL and could use a
   description logic reasoner to come to conclusions

   [22]http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2005/barth-mitchell.pdf

   [23]http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2004/barth-mitchell-rosenstein.pdf

   here we go... [24]http://www.w3.org/2005/06/toy-p3p/

   rigo: supermarket issue!
   ... it is one thing whether you can have a policy language that you
   show to a third party
   ... what you might do, or whether it's about what you will follow ...
   ... may be possible, especially giving thomas's idea re permissible
   uses and rules ...
   ... when p3p came up, we had no useful rule framework ...
   ... use of owl or rif
   ... it is one thing whether you can use plain P3P to implement
   preferences
   ... implementing appel was possible, but also a challenge; led to weird
   rsults ...

   marco: remember all this discussion ...
   ... think real-world examples would be useful

PRIME Closing event

   marco: There will be a PRIME closing event in Leuven on 21 July
   ... it's co-located with PET symposium ...

   rigo: will be on the closing event, but not on symposium ...

aob?

   none

next meeting

   marco: The next meeting is exepcted for 9 July

   tlr: possible regrets from tlr and rigo

   adjourned

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Marco to drive discussion about making recent changes
   visible? [recorded in
   [25]http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]
     __________________________________________________________________


    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [26]scribe.perl version 1.133
    ([27]CVS log)
    $Date: 2008/06/11 12:52:11 $

References

   1. http://www.w3.org/
   2. http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/2008-06-11
   3. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-irc
   4. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#agenda
   5. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item01
   6. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item02
   7. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item03
   8. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item04
   9. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item05
  10. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item06
  11. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item07
  12. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item08
  13. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item09
  14. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item10
  15. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#item11
  16. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#ActionSummary
  17. http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/2008-06-11
  18. http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/Main_Page
  19. http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/OpenIssues
  20. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#action01
  21. http://www.w3.org/Policy/pling/wiki/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&days=14
  22. http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2005/barth-mitchell.pdf
  23. http://www.adambarth.com/papers/2004/barth-mitchell-rosenstein.pdf
  24. http://www.w3.org/2005/06/toy-p3p/
  25. http://www.w3.org/2008/06/11-pling-minutes.html#action01
  26. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
  27. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Received on Wednesday, 11 June 2008 12:59:23 GMT

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