Re: Is there an html or WCAG definition of "modality" as it relates to keyboard behavior in a modeal dialog?

Shane, I completely agree that you need to be able to move focus from a 
modal to the chrome or to other browser windows or tabs.

But, I do not think focus should leave a modal when tabbing or using arrow 
keys. That is extremely problematic. It throws focus off into some far 
away place that is in a completely different and unrelated context.

All browsers have a variety of keys, well-known to any kb user, that move 
focus to other tabs, to the address bar, to the menu bar, etc. The 
probability that someone who can not use the mouse does not know at least 
one of those keys is probably 0 or so close to 0 that it can not be 
measured. People who can not use the mouse probably will never get to the 
modal without the keyboard if they don't know such a key. 

I believe saying you must be able to tab to the browser chrome from a 
modal because the user does not otherwise know how to get there is like 
saying Windows apps should put the windows desktop in the tab order of all 
Windows modals.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398
mattking@us.ibm.com



From:   Shane McCarron <shane@aptest.com>
To:     Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, 
Cc:     Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS, Birkir Gunnarsson 
<birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>, "WAI Protocols & Formats" 
<public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date:   04/16/2015 09:34 AM
Subject:        Re: Is there an html or WCAG definition of "modality" as 
it relates to keyboard behavior in a modeal dialog?
Sent by:        ahby@aptest.com



I am with Fred here.  The chrome of a browser is equivalent to a Window 
Manager.  An application should NEVER be able to prevent me from getting 
to the window manager.  Otherwise I can't, for example, kill the 
application or look up some information in another application that I need 
to fill in the modal dialog.

On Thu, Apr 16, 2015 at 11:23 AM, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:
Matt,

I am confused by your point. Are you saying a desktop app with a modal 
dialog open should prevent a user from getting to other applications on 
the desktop? If not, they why should one app in a browser prevent you from 
going to another app in another browser tab?



Regards, 

Fred Esch 
Accessibility, Watson Innovations
AARB Complex Visualization Working Group Chair
W3C SVG Accessibility Task Force 




Matthew King---04/16/2015 12:17:04 PM---Birkir, I have been involved in 
similar discussions and agree that focus should

From: Matthew King/Fishkill/IBM@IBMUS
To: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>
Cc: "WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Date: 04/16/2015 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: Is there an html or WCAG definition of "modality" as it 
relates to   keyboard behavior in a modeal dialog?




Birkir,

I have been involved in similar discussions and agree that focus should 
not leave a modal dialog. 

There are some who argue that inside the browser context, that this 
behavior should be platform dependent. I strongly disagree with such a 
position as I think it clings to an out-of-date notion that the browser is 
THE application and stuff inside is browser rendered content rather than 
the idea that a browser can render applications in the same way that a 
desktop OS renders desktop applications.

Now that we have a modal property in ARIA 1.1, perhaps we could advocate 
for a normative "author SHOULD" requirement along these lines related to 
that property.

Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398 
mattking@us.ibm.com



From:        Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>
To:        "WAI Protocols & Formats" <public-pfwg@w3.org>, 
Date:        04/15/2015 12:33 PM
Subject:        Is there an html or WCAG definition of "modality" as it 
relates to  keyboard behavior in a modeal dialog?



Greetings

At a meeting with a big client today we had exhaustive discussions on
whether it is a failure if user focus is allowed to go out of a modal
dialog, into the address bar of the browser, then back into the modal.
The big issue discussed is that no one was able to find a W3C
definition of modality. The ARIA Authoring Guide describes expected
behavior when navigating a modal dialog using the keyboard, but that
specification, though excellent, is not normative.
It is not clear to me that allowing user to get to the address bar is
a definitely violation of 2.4.3 (I would like to find something that
enabled me to definitely call it as such).
Apologies if this is off-topic, but is there anywhere in WCAG specs or
the html spec where modal is clearly defined with regard to keyboard
navigation, something that can be referenced when calling keyboard
navigation that enables user to leave a modal, if only for a single
tabstop, a WCAG failure?
Thanks
-Birkir






-- 
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.