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minutes: Feb 10, 2014 WAI PF ARIA Caucus

From: Matthew King <mattking@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 08:37:27 -0800
To: WAI Protocols & Formats <public-pfwg@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF8344E5A7.12F145D3-ON88257C7B.005B1558-88257C7B.005B5275@us.ibm.com>
Draft minutes are posted at the following URL and follow my signature in 
plain text.


Matt King
IBM Senior Technical Staff Member
I/T Chief Accessibility Strategist
IBM BT/CIO - Global Workforce and Web Process Enablement 
Phone: (503) 578-2329, Tie line: 731-7398

W3C <http://www.w3.org/>

  - DRAFT -

  Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
  10 Feb 2014

See also: IRC log <http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-irc>


    Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, Rich_Schwerdtfeger,
    joanie, Matt_King, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Jon_Gunderson, James_Craig
    Matt, mattking


  * Topics <#agenda>
     1. call time change reminder <#item01>
     2. Epub update <#item02>
     3. Graphics module <#item03>
     4. ARIA 1.0 moving to recommendation <#item04>
     5. Providing a role alternative to presentation <#item05>
  * Summary of Action Items <#ActionSummary>


<trackbot> Date: 10 February 2014

<richardschwerdtfeger> meeting: W3C WAI-PF ARIA Caucus

<clown> zakim GVoice has Joseph_Scheuhammer


<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Matt

<mattking> scribe: mattking

      call time change reminder

Reminder that call time changes on Feb 17 to 1 PM US eastern.

      Epub update

A subgroup working on epub structural semantics starts next week.

JS: is aria 1.1 or 2.0 time frame

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/

Janina: When the module is ready; could be either.

RS: significant amount of work is already completed.

      Graphics module

RS: Edupub is a conference. They are working an extension to what is
used in epub for graphics.
... another WAI taskforce is working on a graphics modeule for ARIA,
probably 2.0 time frame.

<jongunderson> Hopefully they can make the testing sites more accessible 

<jongunderson> We have lots of problems with accommodations with these
testing services

      ARIA 1.0 moving to recommendation

Janina: we have 4 votes in
... Encourage reps to vote.

JS: how many are we waiting for.

Michael: the more we get the more it helps with transition. Fewer than
10, could be problematic.

<richardschwerdtfeger> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/348

      Providing a role alternative to presentation

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to talk about the work involved in
deprecating an ARIA 1.0 role name

RS: We want to avoid people using aria-label="" to achieve A11y API 

JC: Any new role should have a fall back 1.0 role.
... example: role="none presentation"
... that would work against the goal of having a shorter token.

Rich previously mentioned that role="presentation" is is a long enough
string to effect download times on pages where it is used 1000s of
times. So, a shorter string is desirable.

<jcraig> role="<% role %>"

<jcraig> role=""

<jcraig> aria-label=""

JC: role="" as one of the options caries some risk; it could lead to
accidental role presentation.

JG: Meaningful role names are very important to ensure authors understand.
... People read the spec and interpret the spec based on the name of the
role rather by reading the spec.
... I suggest using terms that are meaningful to people based on their
use elsewhere, e.g., inline or block

<clown> <table role="contents" ...

JS: I see the problem is that the author does not recognize that the
content is exposed whereas semantics is not. The primary issue is one of
author understanding. We need a name that clearly expresses that only
content is exposed.
... So I propose something like role="contents".

RS: Would we entertain some way of having abbreviations.

JC: Using names like block or inline seem more vague because you could
have a role block styled as inline, for example.

<richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger

Stephan: Role presentation does not add to understanding because
everything is "presented" on a page.
... There should be some other more clear english term.

<clown> From the spec for the presentation role: "An element whose
implicit native role semantics will not be mapped to the accessibility 

<clown> "The intended use is when an element is used to change the look
of the page but does not have all the functional, interactive, or
structural relevance implied by the element type"

Stephan: I also do not recommend reusing terms like block, inline, div,
etc as that will add to the confusion.

<clown> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/roles#presentation

<clown> <table role="layout" ...


<clown> <img role="layout" vs. <img role="decorative".

MK: Is one possible approach to narrow the use and then add other roles
to cover other use cases.

RS: Originally role presentation was not intended for images, for example.

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to mention role="none/null/generic" (the
block or inline style could affect final output to API like it does on

<richardschwerdtfeger> ach richardschwerdtfeger

JC: role="none" or role="null" is similar in my mind to role="generic",
which is a bit long.
... I have issues with something like block or inline bacause it ties us
to a layout style.

RS: In future, should we consider whether the layout is actually 
... and would the term layout be appropriate in other host language

JC: We still know about position on page even if the role is null or

RS: Because everything in SVG is persistent, we do not want to mapp
every element unlessthe element has accessibility semantics. So, in SVG,
none could mean leave it out.

JG: Would there be any restrictions on the use of role="none"
... e.g., would we allow on headings.

JC: No restriction, we are not looking for a new meaning of the role but
instead just a syninom

<richardschwerdtfeger> ack richardschwerdtfeger

RS: where does this discussion leave us:
... Layout is a problem, "" is problematic. Is there is consensus on the
meaning of none?

JG: Can role none only be used to override native semantics?
... if you can multiple roles, then what would happen if none is
specified as a fallback role?

JC: Maybe that should be an author error.

RS: Doesn't ARIA do exactly that for all roles, override native semantics:

JG? There is a difference between overriding vs removing.

More discussion of need for training to ensure correct usage vs a
general tendancy to cause misunderstanding. Even a11y experts have
misinterpreted role presentation as meaning that it is left out of the
tree completely.

MK: do we need to look at spec to examine the meaning of multiple roles.
It is not clear to me thatmultiple roles means fallback and that it is
not additive.

JC: The role attribute in ARIA is an order token list; it is not like a
class list.
... For ARIA 1.1, we need to test fall back to ensure that role="none
presentation" results in roole="presentation" to support legacy aria 1.0
support in browsers.
... Have most objectives to role="none" fallen away.

JS: It is still not my preference, but I do not have a better suggestion.

JD: what should we reconsider how <img role="none" alt="foo"> is handled?

<jcraig> If an element with a role of presentation is focusable, user
agents MUST ignore the normal effect of the role and expose the element
with implicit native semantics, in order to ensure that the element is
both understandable and operable. Authors SHOULD NOT provide meaningful
alternative text (for example, use alt="" in HTML4) when the
presentation role is applied to an image.

RS: what about <img role="none" aria-label="foo">
... should be author error.

JC: Spec already calls it out as an error.

<jcraig> <input value="foo" role="none">

RS: nothing in html5 that says alt text must be rendered

<jcraig> <input value="foo" disabled>

<jcraig> <input value="foo" disabled role="text">

<jongunderson> 1+

<clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/roles#presentation

<scribe> *ACTION:* jcraig Add role none to spec [recorded in

<trackbot> Created ACTION-1383 - Add role none to spec [on James Craig -
due 2014-02-17].

<jongunderson> bye

    Summary of Action Items

*[NEW]* *ACTION:* jcraig Add role none to spec [recorded in
[End of minutes]
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$Date: 2014-02-10 16:33:37 $


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Succeeded: s/somethng like role="content"/something like role="contents"/
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Default Present: Stefan_Schnabel, Michael_Cooper, Janina_Sajka, 
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Found Date: 10 Feb 2014
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2014/02/10-aria-minutes.html
People with action items: add jcraig none role

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Received on Monday, 10 February 2014 16:38:13 UTC

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