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Re: Please clarify ARIA definition of "grid" role

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Aug 2010 13:26:26 -0500
To: James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, public-pfwg-comments@w3.org, public-pfwg-comments-request@w3.org, Steve Faulkner <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>
Message-ID: <OF283ED726.CC28A049-ON8625778F.00646E55-8625778F.00654C27@us.ibm.com>

James,

The reason we created grid was to turn a table into one that is
interactive, however, some component libraries like Dojo do not use table
to create the actual grid. They use divs and spans to lay out the
structure.
I think if we were to do what you suggest HTML should modify its definition
of table to be a non-interactive grid.

As for a grid having to be in inside an element with role="application"
that is inaccurate. Windows assistive technologies now recognize elements
with an aria role of grid and pass keyboard navigation off to the widget as
they know they are interactive. No role="application" on the body tag is
required.

Maciej,

Would HTML be willing state that a table is an non-interactive grid in its
definition or simply state that <table> is non-interactive?



Rich Schwerdtfeger
CTO Accessibility Software Group



From:	James Craig <jcraig@apple.com>
To:	Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
Cc:	Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, public-pfwg-comments@w3.org,
            public-pfwg-comments-request@w3.org, Steve Faulkner
            <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>
Date:	08/29/2010 02:17 PM
Subject:	Re: Please clarify ARIA definition of "grid" role
Sent by:	public-pfwg-comments-request@w3.org



Added the following note to ISSUE-421.

I'd support allowing the HTML role mapping of table to grid because the
distinction you're making applies to behavior, not role. A table is just a
readonly grid that is not focus-managed by the author. If we limit grids to
interactive controls and explicitly disallow the role on tables, we won't
have role symmetry with HTML, and we'd need to define a few more roles. We
specifically added rowgroup to account for thead, tbody, and tfoot, so
we've already implied that this is a suitable role for HTML tables.

I believe the reason you're making the distinction is due to the Windows
screen readers behavior of key events inside elements with role
application. What if we added the prose to indicate that grids inside
[role="application"] where interactive, author-managed-focus controls, and
grids inside [role="document"] were readonly, UA-managed-focus tables?


On Aug 28, 2010, at 9:13 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:



      Maciej,

      That's fair. I have opened issue 421 to address this change with your
      suggested text. http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/421

      Thank you,
      Rich


      Rich Schwerdtfeger
      CTO Accessibility Software Group

      <graycol.gif>Maciej Stachowiak ---08/28/2010 08:45:00 PM---On Aug 26,
      2010, at 7:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote: > Tables do NOT allow
      users to move focus

      From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
      To: Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS
      Cc: public-pfwg-comments@w3.org, public-pfwg-comments-request@w3.org,
      Steve Faulkner <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>
      Date: 08/28/2010 08:45 PM
      Subject: Re: Please clarify ARIA definition of "grid" role






      On Aug 26, 2010, at 7:51 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:

      > Tables do NOT allow users to move focus between cells using two
      dimensional navigation.
      >
      My reading of that sentence was that it was a statement of fact about
      what would happen if you apply the grid role (that the assistive
      technology would provide two-dimentional navigation), not a
      limitation on when it may be applied. Since multiple people
      misunderstood this definition on first reading, I think a
      clarification would still be helpful, even if you think it is not
      strictly necessary. For example:

      "A grid is an interactive control which contains cells of tabular
      data arranged in rows and columns, like a table."

      I think that simple change to ARIA would have prevented all
      confusion.

      Regards,
      Maciej

      >
      >
      > Rich Schwerdtfeger
      > CTO Accessibility Software Group
      >
      > <graycol.gif>Maciej Stachowiak ---08/26/2010 05:03:10 AM---ARIA has
      the following definition of the "grid" role: ------------
      >
      > From: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>
      > To: public-pfwg-comments@w3.org
      > Cc: Steve Faulkner <sfaulkner@paciellogroup.com>
      > Date: 08/26/2010 05:03 AM
      > Subject: Please clarify ARIA definition of "grid" role
      > Sent by: public-pfwg-comments-request@w3.org
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ARIA has the following definition of the "grid" role:
      >
      > ------------
      > <http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#grid>
      > A grid contains cells of tabular data arranged in rows and columns,
      like a table.
      >
      > Grids do not necessarily imply presentation. The grid construct
      describes relationships between data such that it may be used for
      different presentations. Grids allow the user to move focus between
      cells using two dimensional navigation. For example, grid might be
      used as the invisible data model (hidden with CSS but still operable
      by assistive technologies) for a presentational chart.
      > ------------
      >
      > This seems like an exact match for the HTML <table> element, which
      contains cells of tabular data arranged in rows and columns, like a
      table. According to Steve Faulkner, however, this role is only
      supposed to be used for *interactive* presentations of tabular data
      arranged in rows and columns. Please update the ARIA draft to make
      this clear. Or, if the grid role is in fact supposed to be applicable
      even to non-interactive presentations of tabular data, please reply
      with this information ASAP, since it is relevant to the ARIA role
      mapping in the HTML5 spec.
      >
      > Regards,
      > Maciej
      >
      >
      >







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Received on Monday, 30 August 2010 18:27:07 GMT

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