Re: Trill fonts (Whole step trill, and Half-step trill, ligatures, and turns?)

I agree that at least the tr1/2 is something I’ve seen in actual scores and is worth adding because of the difficulty of compositing and the analogy with tr[b] and tr[#].  If it is to be a ligature, I’d prefer it to be trill + 1/2 not vice-versa, since I can imagine having 1/2 trills or 1/2 section trills and having the ligature appear without meaning it.

tr1/2 is useful in situations where “tr[b]” can be ambiguous (does a B# with tr[b] really mean I should trill down to Cb?, I want to trill B# to C#, but tr[#] implies C##).

Best,
Myke



On Nov 12, 2017, at 12:22, Kentaro Sato (Ken-P) <kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>> wrote:

Dear Daniel

>>My feeling is that "W" and "1/2" or "HT" don't belong in SMuFL as they can easily be written using any regular text font

Of course, "W" "1/2" themselves can be created with regular fonts. But the suggested combination of the fonts are very difficult to make/execute in notation programs (that is why people, including me, makes own fonts for them).

My view is that it would help scoring community a lot if such trills appear in the recommended ligature sections of Common ornaments "4.46."
Though current SMuFL doesn't address (excuse me if I am wrong),  "W" is U+0057 and "½" is U+00BD. So, the recommended ligature would be "uni0057_uniE566" for a trill with "W" on top, and "uni00BD_uniE566" for a trill with "½" on top, just like trills with sharp/flat/natural.

Now, if fonts for recommended ligature needs to be within SMuFL specification, then, oh well....


Sincerely Yours

----------
Kentaro Sato (Ken-P)
Composer & Conductor
Wiseman Project LLC/GK (President & CEO)
http://www.wisemanproject.com<http://www.wisemanproject.com/>
kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>
----------


________________________________
From: Daniel Spreadbury <D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de<mailto:D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de>>
To: Kentaro Sato (Ken-P) <kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>>
Cc: "public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>" <public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2017 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Trill fonts (Whole step trill, and Half-step trill, ligatures, and turns?)

Hi Kentaro,

My feeling is that "W" and "1/2" or "HT" don't belong in SMuFL as they can easily be written using any regular text font. I am interested to hear in the opinions of others in the community in case they disagree with me.

Daniel



From:        "Kentaro Sato (Ken-P)" <kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>>
To:        Daniel Spreadbury <D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de<mailto:D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de>>, "public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>" <public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>>
Date:        10/11/2017 16:45
Subject:        Re: Trill fonts (Whole step trill, and Half-step trill, ligatures, and  turns?)
________________________________



Hi.

I had scoring sessions in London last month at Abbey Road and AIR, and had a chance to talk to some music prep company people and librarians there about the issue.

Their responses are almost the same.
1) They would like to see the special font to be added for whole note and half note trills. They are rather tired of specifying trill note with small or parenthesized note, or creating special combination of font using whatever the special function in notation software. Just one click away to correct trill indicatin would speed things up greatly, especially for no-key concert notation, and scores with a lot of transposed instruments.

2) "W" for a whole note trill and "1/2" for a half note trill seems to be accepted indication. "H" would be less common, and for sight reading, "W" and "1/2" are so different looking, the players seem to prefer them.

3) "W" and "1/2" are better to be appeared above the trill sign just like sharp/flat/natural, and not followed by.

4) They love to see that notation softwares to correctly interpret trill intervals with these signs for playback. ;)


Sincerely Yours

----------
Kentaro Sato (Ken-P)
Composer & Conductor
Wiseman Project LLC/GK (President & CEO)
http://www.wisemanproject.com<http://www.wisemanproject.com/>
kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>
----------


________________________________
From: Daniel Spreadbury <D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de<mailto:D.Spreadbury@steinberg.de>>
To: "public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>" <public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>>
Cc: Kentaro Sato (Ken-P) <kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 11:07 PM
Subject: Re: Trill fonts (Whole step trill, and Half-step trill, ligatures, and turns?)

Thanks for raising this issue, Kentaro.

I agree that these notations are used in commercial copying. I believe that they have arisen out of the fact that scoring software cannot typically display the appropriate accidental along with the trill based on the note to which the trill is applied, and the current transposition (which may result in the same trill needing to display different accidentals in different contexts), and this notation is a way of displaying the trill interval in a simple and reliable way.

The question, I think, is whether it makes sense to add "W", "H", and "1/2" to the 'Ornaments' range (or a new supplemental range if necessary), given that these characters are widely available in any text font and it is possible, if not probable, that the user would want the font for these characters to follow the text fonts otherwise in use for the score.

My inclination is that we should not add these glyphs to SMuFL on this basis, but of course there is precedent for doing it the other way (e.g. the "D.C." et al. characters that were inherited from the existing musical symbols Unicode range).

I welcome feedback from the community about this issue.

Daniel



From:        "Kentaro Sato (Ken-P)" <kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>>
To:        "public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>" <public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org<mailto:public-music-notation-contrib@w3.org>>
Date:        28/09/2017 16:05
Subject:        Trill fonts (Whole step trill, and Half-step trill, ligatures, and  turns?)
________________________________



Dear All

As the number of film/game/TV cues written in concert C key has increased, many scoring composers and orchestrators have started to use trill notation which specifies the interval (a whole step or a half step) rather than using sharp/natural/flat or with a small destination note. I had found this whole-step and half-step trill notation to be very useful, and I would like the community to think this issue.

The main idea is to use "tr" with "W" "H" or "1/2".  "W" is for whole-note trill, and "H" or "1/2" are for half-step trill.

I have personally use "W" and "1/2," and put those above the "tr" since that use less horizontal space.
However, I have seen "W" "H" or "1/2" placed after "tr."

So, my questions are

1) Whether this issue to be considered or not.
2) If yes, whether "W" "H" or "1/2" are best way for specifying trill intervals for international music community in mind.
3) Where those additional characters to be placed? Above "tr", next to "tr", or other?
4) Whether these additional characters to be used for "turn notation" for recommended ligatures. Please refer to recommended ligatures at https://w3c.github.io/smufl/gitbook/tables/common-ornaments.html


Thank you for your consideration, and here is examples!
<Untitled.jpeg>



Sincerely Yours

----------
Kentaro Sato (Ken-P)
Composer & Conductor
Wiseman Project LLC/GK (President & CEO)
http://www.wisemanproject.com<http://www.wisemanproject.com/>

kentaro.sato@yahoo.com<mailto:kentaro.sato@yahoo.com>

----------



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President: Andreas Stelling | Managing Director: Thomas Schöpe, Yoshiyuki Tsugawa

Registration Court: Hamburg HRB 86534

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